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Sweden and coronavirus

Whatever you think about lockdowns, if other things are not in place, although somewhat expensive, they do work, and they save lives.

I think the evidence supports the idea that "lockdowns" reduce infection spread, but the question is how you define a lockdown, what's ok & what isn't; this isn't lockdown vs no lockdown, it's what is a lockdown.

If the Norwegian analysis now says that they could have done a Swedish style lockdown (ie much less stringent) and it would have made no difference, surely that would be better? Especially if we are going to go through this more times as seems very likely.
 
Show me where the Norwegian analysis actually says that though.

I quoted the Director of the Norwegian Public Health Institute last page - it's not some super-deep analysis, just what they currently think. They modelled how they think the virus has spread and went backwards and think that R was only just over 1 when they started their lockdown.
 
I translated the paper that was based off on and quoted it. It didnt say what others are claiming it said. The Norwegian government might have gone further, but I'm ignoring them and sticking to the science.
 
Since various anti-lockdown sentiments and the paradox relating to self-defeating prophecies are causing me to rant plenty these days, I'll probably have to do an occasional bit of rebalancing so that I dont end up misrepresenting my own feelings on the subject as a whole.

Are there some countries that, especially with the benefit of hindsight could have avoided full lockdown? Probably, if conditions in those countries were not ripe for the same sort of epidemic we faced in the UK, or they did much better at keeping the numbers down in early phases of the pandemic. Did many of those countries have the luxury of seeing which combinations of measures were actually enough at the time? Mostly not, so I wont give hindsight-based stuff too much prominence.

But beyond that, are there any facts that could emerge which would change my overall thoughts on lockdowns everywhere? The possibly does remain. I was ready for that possibility back in February when it came to stuff like serology (antibody) studies from Wuhan, but instead the data showed that only a low proportion of people there had antibodies so far. This rather went against expectations, including my own, that asymptomatic cases would be a bigger, previously mostly overlooked, part of the picture. The WHO highlighted this lack of asymptomatic cases/wider population disease prevalence a lot at the time, and its a big chunk of the reason why lockdowns started to look like the only option as time went on and situations became dire and urgent. Since then, we have had antibody studies, often fairly small or very localised in nature, which have tended to show a similar thing. eg no more than 15-20% type ranges of population infection in the worlst hit locations, and considerably less elsewhere.

But is that the end of the story? I'm not so sure. For example, there is the following study which seems to show a much higher level of asymptomatic cases, far more along the lines of what people like me would have been expecting to hear about all along:


Of the 217 passengers and crew on board, 128 tested positive for COVID-19 on reverse transcription–PCR (59%). Of the COVID-19-positive patients, 19% (24) were symptomatic; 6.2% (8) required medical evacuation; 3.1% (4) were intubated and ventilated; and the mortality was 0.8% (1). The majority of COVID-19-positive patients were asymptomatic (81%, 104 patients). We conclude that the prevalence of COVID-19 on affected cruise ships is likely to be significantly underestimated, and strategies are needed to assess and monitor all passengers to prevent community transmission after disembarkation.

I would not be looking to data from a relatively small ship as if it would mirror the levels of infection seen across whole countries. But the proportion of asymptomatic cases is the thing of note to me here. If only that study had also then later done antibody testing of all the people on the ship, we would have had some guide as to whether everyone who actually tested positive but were asymptomatic went on to eventually produce antibodies. And that in turn could give us clues as to whether some of the antibody data we are starting to get could be misleading us about the scale of population infection during the first wave.

Because if it did turn out that vastly more people were infected with no real consequence in the first wave, that would have all manner of implications for past and future strategies, and some of my tunes would change as a result. But I cannot go down that path without answers to some of these questions, and that time does not yet seem to have arrived. All the same, I do keep it in mind even whilst ranting about a range of anti-lockdown positions that are crappy. But plenty of those theories so far just seize on some small detail that they think is helpful to their cause, treat it like the main fact and build their case around it with little care for the full accurate picture.

If it did turn out that there had (and will be in future) many more asymptomatic cases than has been presumed so far, then this has implications in both directions. On the one hand it would change the calculations about remaining population susceptibility and ultimate disease burden, and implications for healthcare capacity etc. At the extreme end of things, it could even demonstrate that lockdown was so late it didnt make much difference to epidemic progression in some places, that the size of wave we got with lockdown wasnt so different from what the disease would have done when left to its own devices. But on the other hand, asymptomatic transmission is one of the reasons we had to resort to heavy, crude measures in the first place, since on paper there are lots of more nuanced measures that are partially thwarted if lots of the people involved dont even know they are carrying the disease. Which is one of the reasons why crude stuff like a lockdown and general social distancing for all was deemed necessary in the first place.
 
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I wonder how many of them were truly asymptomatic rather than pre symptomatic though. I'm guessing at least some would have been.
 
I wonder how many of them were truly asymptomatic rather than pre symptomatic though. I'm guessing at least some would have been.

Thats the direction we are normally encouraged to go with those sorts of studies. If the data isnt there, I cannot go there, and in this case that data isnt there and they ignore the issue completely.

I think I will keep an eye on certain parts of the ONS surveys so that I can see this picture build over time for the UK, and where crucially we should continue to get follow-up data about whether the people involved ever started showing symptoms. The numbers involved are on the small side so I will be cautious about any results, but here is the latest picture on that anyway:

Out of those people that tested positive for COVID-19 over the study period, only 21% (95% confidence interval: 13% to 31%) reported experiencing one or more of the various symptoms at the time of their test. Out of those who reported testing positive, 30% (95% confidence interval: 20% to 43%) reported experiencing symptoms at any point over the course of the study period. This could be reported at any visit, before or after testing positive for COVID-19.

From Coronavirus (COVID-19) Infection Survey pilot - Office for National Statistics
 
If only that study had also then later done antibody testing of all the people on the ship, we would have had some guide as to whether everyone who actually tested positive but were asymptomatic went on to eventually produce antibodies. And that in turn could give us clues as to whether some of the antibody data we are starting to get could be misleading us about the scale of population infection during the first wave.
This is exactly the information I've been looking for. It would explain the way that 15-20% keeps cropping up again and again. Frustrating missed opportunity, cos aside from purposely infecting a bunch of people to study, it's not easy to find out, is it? Not too late, though, perhaps, to follow that up - cruise ships are an accidental experiment in that sense.

I'm not the only one looking for an answer to this, clearly. Google completed my search terms for me after four letters.
 
To avoid confusion about my position I should probably say that if I was forced to guess based on whats available so far, I dont actually find the levels of prior infection picked up by antibody tests so far to be surprising, I am not in disbelief at those numbers when they are found to be in the 4-20% range. Its the number of cases which remain asymptomatic that I feel may be higher than is acknowledged in many studies so far. But I dont know, I try to keep an open mind, but as time goes on I suppose the chances of a further twist or massive surprise on this front are diminishing.
 
I translated the paper that was based off on and quoted it. It didnt say what others are claiming it said. The Norwegian government might have gone further, but I'm ignoring them and sticking to the science.

re norway: government overruled the public health officials and took lockdown further than recommended. The experts seems politely resigned/rather irritated about this, specially re the shutting down of schools, which they advised against. In the report that led to the article (thelocal.no) mentioned above, they do express concern for the effect the lockdown has had on both health and economy and advices against 'automatic reinstating of all lockdown measures' in the advent of a second wave. Links below to a radio interview in english, that part ends at bout 8 mins, and to the report in norweigan (pdf, should be possible to run through google translate or whatever, cant make it work on my mobile atm.)



The public health institute of norway has excellent information in english btw, www.fhi.no
 

Behind a paywall. :(

I guess this is the story...

Sweden’s top epidemiologist has admitted his strategy to fight Covid-19 resulted in too many deaths, after persuading his country to avoid a strict lockdown.

“If we were to encounter the same illness with the same knowledge that we have today, I think our response would land somewhere in between what Sweden did and what the rest of the world has done,” Anders Tegnell said in an interview with Swedish Radio.

At 43 deaths per 100,000, Sweden’s death rate is among the highest globally and far exceeds that of neighboring Denmark and Norway, which imposed much tougher lockdowns at the outset of the pandemic.

Now, Tegnell has for the first time admitted publicly that the strategy is resulting in too many deaths.

“Clearly, there is potential for improvement in what we have done in Sweden,” he said.

What’s more, there’s so far limited evidence that Sweden’s decision to leave much of its society open will support the economy. Finance Minister Magdalena Andersson recently warned that Sweden is facing its worst economic crisis since World War II, with GDP set to slump 7% in 2020, roughly as much as the rest of the EU.

The government has started to grow concerned at the apparent missteps taken to fight the spread of the virus in Sweden. On Monday, Lofven promised there’d be an inquiry into the handling of the crisis before the summer.

 
Yup Sweden's approach was looking increasingly indefensible even against Europe as a whole and much much worse compared to their Scandinavian neighbours.

The one thing it does do is give us a bit of an insight into what doing nothing would have turned out like. I know Sweden did introduce some measures which is is why I say '"a bit of an insight".
 
This Tegnell story appears to have been spun a little bit by the media. The Swedish press yesterday morning carried similar headlines along the lines of Tegnell admitting mistakes, saying the deaths were too high, etc and when he appeared yesterday at the daily coronavirus press conference in Sweden, he was peppered with questions about this and was keen to clarify what he actually said and meant.

What he clarified was he had been asked how the response would have looked if they had today’s knowledge of the virus back in Feb /Mar when the policies were being considered and formed. That was the point which he answered quite openly to say that knowing what they do now, they likely would have had more of a hybrid between laid-back and lockdown and in so doing, would have expected to have improved upon the death rate. But he’s clear to say that this doesn’t mean he thinks they got it wrong in responding how they did to the information which was available at the time.

He also says that other countries see Sweden as a threat and implies the foreign media might be knocking them because the Swedish model makes it clear that a less restrictive response was possible.

Anders Tegnell: Omvärlden ser den svenska modellen som ett hot Tegnell’s clarification (in swedish). Headline is “The world sees the Swedish model as a threat“
 
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How is Norway handling it ?
I've been seeing right wing sponsored propaganda posts on Facebook claiming we don't need to be locked-down citing Norwegian stats I don't have the stamina to read ...
 
How is Norway handling it ?
I've been seeing right wing sponsored propaganda posts on Facebook claiming we don't need to be locked-down citing Norwegian stats I don't have the stamina to read ...
Norway had a strict lockdown and has had a relatively tiny number of cases, pretty successfully squashing the outbreak. There was an article last week by a Norwegian health chief saying that on reflection they think the lockdown was too severe for the specific Norwegian circumstances. Your r/w sources will have latched on to that. The Norwegian stats on their own do not demonstrate this, however. They just show a small outbreak being successfully bashed down.
 
He also says that other countries see Sweden as a threat and implies the foreign media might be knocking them because the Swedish model makes it clear that a less restrictive response was possible.

Some of the irrational responses to Swedish policy make this really obvious. Sweden is also a sufficiently coherent society that they can actually debate policy errors and not cling relentlessly to certainty and right, regardless of reality.
 
The Norwegian stats on their own do not demonstrate this, however. They just show a small outbreak being successfully bashed down.

:confused:

I thought the Head of the Norwegian Public Health Institute was saying that their modelling now indicates that the R number was basically down to zero at the point they began their lockdown? In which case the Norwegian stats sort of do say this (the R was just over 1 so it's not 100% right, just that the Norwegian lockdown was probably excessive)
 
:confused:

I thought the Head of the Norwegian Public Health Institute was saying that their modelling now indicates that the R number was basically down to zero at the point they began their lockdown? In which case the Norwegian stats sort of do say this (the R was just over 1 so it's not 100% right, just that the Norwegian lockdown was probably excessive)
Norway locked down on March 12. It was testing a lot around then, but new cases did continue to rise over the two weeks after lockdown, so the R number (always guesswork/inference) was certainly not down to near zero at that point. Given the way cases reduced quickly in April, it is certainly fair to say that it was very low by then.

In fact, what was said was that the R number was very nearly down to 1 by lockdown, meaning that they could have suppressed the spread with more gentle measures (not with no measures at all, though).

This article in The Spectator links to it. Not an unbiased source as that magazine has been anti-lockdown for a while, but the report is in Norwegian, so I'm going to trust them to have quoted it accurately at least.

All I would say to that is that there are unknowns still. At the point of lockdown, even by their calculations, the R number was still just above 1. Things could still have got worse quite quickly - eg by spreading the virus to care homes, which didn't happen in Norway - or they could have reached a situation a bit like what Sweden has now, with a persistent level of infection that, while not spiralling out of control, still stubbornly refuses to go away.

fwiw my take on that is that it's a very sensible conversation to have regarding what to do next time this kind of thing happens. Lockdown is always only ever a thing you do in an emergency to buy you time to produce a solution. It isn't the solution in and of itself, which I think many in the UK government for far too long thought it would be. And next time, a far more targeted approach should be possible everywhere, not just in Norway.

Thing is, with the benefit of hindsight, perhaps neither Norway nor Sweden got the balance just right. But I know which country I'd rather be in right now, and I'd rather have been in for at least the last month.
 
Well I thought I’d seen the worst of the Swedes‘ “laidbackedness“ over covid-19, but this takes the biscuit.

The infection control doctor supervising the greater Stockholm region has declared that if you’re a confirmed covid-19 case and have only mild symptoms, have been ill over a week and have been fever free for two days, then you’re allowed to go to work because the risk of infecting others is “quite small”. This is now the official rule covering the city of Stockholm and surrounding area.

The link is in Swedish and this became effective today, so I’m guessing the English language world will pick up on this story over the next couple of days. I can’t find any English language sources for this at present. Appears at first glance to be barking mad to me!

 
Sweden has upped its testing game, evidently. Deaths down to just about a quarter of peak now, peak coming maybe a week later than the UK. One lesson of this, regardless of attitudes towards lockdown, is surely that you have to test and test again. Even without lockdown or formal test and trace procedures in place, people will behave differently with a positive test.

It's not following a dissimilar path to the UK, overall. (Not that that's a recommendation!)

Latest numbers here

Experience
 
Wasn't sure where to put this, so I'll place it here, as it's the thread of alternative pandemic theories, shall we say.

One alternative model that fits the data has been one that assumes a proportion of the population has some or total resistance to catching covid-19 or fights it off with alternative means. This is the first possible smoking gun I've seen for that - a study that shows around half of people never infected have T-cells that can recognise the virus and get down to the business of killing infected cells.

Study done in California, finding CD4+ and CD8+ T cells in non-exposed people. These cells have the potential to recognise covid-19.

The study's main focus is on developing a vaccine, but it cannot stop itself from the following speculation:
CD4+ T cell responses were detected in 40%–60% of unexposed individuals. This may be reflective of some degree of cross-reactive, preexisting immunity to SARS-CoV-2 in some, but not all, individuals. Whether this immunity is relevant in influencing clinical outcomes is unknown—and cannot be known without T cell measurements before and after SARS-CoV-2 infection of individuals—but it is tempting to speculate that the cross-reactive CD4+ T cells may be of value in protective immunity, based on SARS mouse models

Strikes me as something that really needs following up. We have a hypothesis now. Testing non-infected subjects for these T cells in different populations, you can then test whether there is a correlation between the levels found and the shapes of the pandemics in those places. (It's a potential candidate for Karl Friston's "dark matter".)

link

https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30610-3
 
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