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Suarez gets 8 match ban

Are you seriously going to argue this? I could quote statistic after statistic on income, education, social mobility, health, whatever indicator you like, confirming that class is very obviously linked to race in the UK. In 2009, one student of afro-caribbean descent was accepted at Oxford, fucking ONE! You're seriously telling me that class, race and social opportunity aren't deeply intertwined in the UK?
Social mobility in the UK is relatively poor compared to other parts of Europe, but relatively good compared to Latin America. Not only that but economic inequality in Latin America is far greater - and the most socially immobile are those at the very top and those at the very bottom. Among those at the very bottom, race can be a very strong signifier of belonging or not belonging to that poorest group in a way that it simply isn't in the UK. To take Mexico as an example, among the poorest and most socially immobile, those of 'Indian' descent are the overwhelming majority; those of purely European descent (a minority in the country as a whole, but the overwhelming majority on, for instance, TV) are completely absent from this poorest group.
 
Social mobility in the UK is relatively poor compared to other parts of Europe, but relatively good compared to Latin America. Not only that but economic inequality in Latin America is far greater - and the most socially immobile are those at the very top and those at the very bottom. Among those at the very bottom, race can be a very strong signifier of belonging or not belonging to that poorest group in a way that it simply isn't in the UK. To take Mexico as an example, among the poorest and most socially immobile, those of 'Indian' descent are the overwhelming majority; those of purely European descent (a minority in the country as a whole, but the overwhelming majority on, for instance, TV) are completely absent from this poorest group.
Differences of degree more than anything. I'm not saying Latin American societies are exactly the same as the UK, but that the UK also has a very strong correlation between race and social class, but is none of these are "caste" societies as stated earlier.

It is one thing to say Latin American societies are institutionally racist, another to say blithely that Latin American culture (singular) is extremely racist. Even taking Mexico as an example, the high levels of intermarriage that would be necessary for the majority of the population to be mixed race rather undermine the idea that you could blanketly determine Mexican culture racist, even if there exists a self-perpetuating European-descended elite.
 
I didn't say the culture was extremely racist. But I do disagree that these kinds of differences are merely differences of degree. It is in many ways differently racist.

But anyway, about the subject of the thread, I'm not sure what I think. 'negrito' and 'nigger' are not the same thing, not at all, and what Suarez did is not at all the same as for instance what Ron the racist Atkinson said. But LFC's unqualified support of him seems misjudged to me. No need to vilify Suarez, but at the same time, perhaps a need from him and Liverpool to show some contrition. Claiming it is all down to a cultural misunderstanding is disingenuous.
 
Are you seriously going to argue this? I could quote statistic after statistic on income, education, social mobility, health, whatever indicator you like, confirming that class is very obviously linked to race in the UK. In 2009, one student of afro-caribbean descent was accepted at Oxford, fucking ONE! You're seriously telling me that class, race and social opportunity aren't deeply intertwined in the UK?
The link between race and class are even more pronounced in Colombia and Venezuela(I would also say other countries in Latin America). Btw have you lived in Latin America? I can't believe you are dismissing what me and littlebabyjesus have been saying. I can search for academic journals backing up what we say. On the caste system in latin america I will use wikipedia for the now-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_Latin_America

During the Spanish colonial period, Spaniards developed a complex caste system based on race, which was used for social control and which also determined a person's rights in society.[15] There were four main categories of race: (1) Peninsular - a Spaniard born in Spain, (2)Criollo (fem. criolla) - a person of Spanish descent born in Mesoamerica, (3) Indio (fem. India) - a person who is a native of, or indigenous to,Mesoamerica, and (4) Negro (fem. Negra) - a person of African slave descent.[15]
 
Under Spanish rule, the following detailed caste system was instituted in Mexico at one time.
  1. Mestizo: Spanish father and Indian mother
  2. Castizo: Spanish father and Mestizo mother
  3. Espomolo: Spanish mother and Castizo father
  4. Mulatto: Spanish and black African
  5. Moor: Spanish and Mulatto
  6. Albino: Spanish father and Moor mother
  7. Throwback: Spanish father and Albino mother
  8. Wolf: Throwback father and Indian mother
  9. Zambiago: Wolf father and Indian mother
  10. Cambujo: Zambiago father and Indian mother
  11. Alvarazado: Cambujo father and Mulatto mother
  12. Borquino: Alvarazado father and Mulatto mother
  13. Coyote: Borquino father and Mulatto mother
  14. Chamizo: Coyote father and Mulatto mother
  15. Coyote-Mestizo: Cahmizo father and Mestizo mother
  16. Ahi Tan Estas: Coyote-Mestizo father and Mulatto mother
http://www.zonalatina.com/Zldata55
 
So, we have Negro as the Spanish word for black, simple, non racist word in it's own context. However, because some erks have used it in the elongated term of N**ger it is deemed that any variation of black in Spanish is now racist? Why? I mean why is Blanco (white), Amarillo (Yellow) etc not racist too? The man is from a Spanish speaking country and yet he is not allowed to speak his own language on a say as you see basis - to Evra "Little black man" = Negrita. We have become a very, very sad nation if we call that rasicm, so much for being multi-cultural. I hope other countries seeing this will now get as tough on Brits abroad - now if you want real racism and insults, get on a package trip to Ibiza.
 
So, what are you? A tall white man? A freckled ginger fat girl? How do you describe people after, say, an attack, if you can't state their skin colour etc? Mental!

No fan of Suarez, but this racist card is very dangerous now, I can forsee every other bloke being sent off a footie field, and most of the stand being banned for life too. The FA via Evra have opened up a massive can of worms that is going to explode in their faces.
 
So, what are you? A tall white man? A freckled ginger fat girl? How do you describe people after, say, an attack, if you can't state their skin colour etc? Mental!
i'm a tall white man, but if someone of a different ethnic background to me was my opponent in a football match and ran around calling me a little white man and insulting me, then yeah, i'd say that was pretty racist.
 
So, what are you? A tall white man? A freckled ginger fat girl? How do you describe people after, say, an attack, if you can't state their skin colour etc? Mental!
Um, describing someone to the coppers after an attack - 'I was attacked by a short black man in his 20s,' say - is totally different. There is no need to describe Evra as a black man to his face. I rather suspect that he already knows the colour of his skin.
 
paul mcgrath on twitter saying that as someone who was at the sharp end of racial abuse during his playing career, he was very disappointed to see liverpool players and manager acting as they did last night.
 
paul mcgrath on twitter saying that as someone who was at the sharp end of racial abuse during his playing career, he was very disappointed to see liverpool players and manager acting as they did last night.
Yes. I have to say that I find Liverpool's reaction bizarre and totally misjudged.
 
Yes. I have to say that I find Liverpool's reaction bizarre and totally misjudged.

While I agree that the tone the club has used is wrong, is it bizarre to believe a player when he says he's not racially abused another player? What happened to innocent until proven guilty? As far as we know this has been his word against Evra's. Hardly a slam dunk case.
 
Interesting piece on goal.com (link has been removed now for some reason but the article is below)

http://www.goal.com/en/news/1717/ed...-word-the-furore-over-luis-suarezs-racism-ban

"It was a situation the likes of which one experiences every day in the Argentine capital of Buenos Aires. Lining up behind an attractive, olive-skinned girl in her mid-20s in a store, in the middle of a December heatwave which pushed the mercury towards 37°C and waiting patiently as the stranger bought a box of Marlboro cigarettes. The clerk passed back her change with a smile, and the salutation "Gracias, negra".

A completely innocuous, mundane interaction, but one that stuck in the mind due to the events that followed a matter of minutes later. On the same day, and at almost exactly the same time as that exchange, Uruguayan forward Luis Suarez was receiving an eight match ban for saying the same word to Patrice Evra on the other side of the world in England.

It is not the purpose of this article to assign blame, to condone or crucify Suarez or to call Evra's sterling reputation as a footballer into disrepute. The pair are both professionals at the very top of their chosen career, so to descend into simple conclusions - as the temptation has been for many in the sport and in the media - is lazy and poor journalism. But to every story there is two sides, and in South America and especially Luis' home nation the reaction has been of utter disbelief.

"Senseless", was Sebastian Abreu's word to describe the lengthy suspension, while Uruguay captain Diego Lugano went even further in calling it a "grave error", and accusing Evra of breaking football's unwritten code of what happens on the pitch, stays on the pitch. The Uruguayan government even commented in favour of their striker, but perhaps one of the most considered arguments was provided by Lazio's Alvaro Gonzalez.

"In Uruguay we use terms that can be misinterpreted and all of us who know Luis know that he wouldn't have made the comment as a defamatory remark," he said in quotes published by Ovacion.

"You can't call a Uruguayan racist because of that ... perhaps we are paying the price for going to live in different cultures."

The word in question, negro, understandably appears ugly and bigoted when laid down on paper in English. As demonstrated by the anecdote at the start of this article, however, in Uruguay as in Argentina and much of Latin America it is considered a neutral, even familiar term. Friends, sons, daughters, parents are addressed with the phrase, or its diminutive negrito/a, whether they are from African, mixed-race or even European descent with blue hair and blonde eyes.

It is not the language of politicians or diplomats, admittedly, indeed little one hears inside the lines of a football pitch would be suitable in the debating chamber of the UN. But it is the product of a society and continent in which the process of nation and population-building has made traditional labels almost superfluous.

Some four per cent of the country's three million population claim African descent, a proportion double that of the United Kingdom and not including those of mixed heritage, believed to number around 10%. This group have been settled and integrated in Uruguayan society up to 400 years, and have left an indelible imprint on the nation's culture, music and language. Suarez himself has an Afro-Uruguayan grandfather, and he is carrying on a grand tradition of multiculturalism in the Celeste football team.

Uruguay withstood strong protest to field black players in the 1916 Copa America, a full 63 years before Viv Anderson took the pitch to become England's first black international. The history of the country's football success is littered with great players of African or mixed descent; and many, such as 1950 captain Obdulio Varela, are still remembered fondly as 'El Negro'.

In this context, then, a misunderstanding of intent and a linguistic confusion appears to be the culprit, one for which Luis Suarez has paid for heavily. Is he really expected to know that the Spanish word he has grown up with as neutral and even affectionate his whole life was co-opted by British and American slavers in the 18th century as a synonym for African people, and used frequently until becoming taboo in the 1960s civil rights struggle? It is the content of a university thesis, not an assumption for a 24-year-old footballer adapting to a new country and culture.

That is not to paint Uruguay or Argentina as colour-blind paradises, far from it. Racism and racist comments are no rarer than anywhere else in the world, although more often directed towards nationalities rather than ethnicities. The fact that in Buenos Aires the term Boliviano or Paraguayo when referring to immigrants from that country can be much more pejorative than the word negro is a cultural anomaly hard to interpret for someone unfamiliar with the culture, and migrants from South America are no strangers to similar discrimination elsewhere.

It has been widely reported, for example, that Evra called Suarez a "South American" or "Sudaca" before receiving his perceived insult, and the latter especially is horribly demeaning for those from the continent who have chosen to pursue their lives in Europe. The South American, however, left things on the field, most likely taking the angry exchange as part and parcel of making his living in a testosterone-fuelled atmosphere where tempers often fray.

It is equally unfair to say that Evra, perhaps not versed in the history and etymology of the word in its Spanish, Latin-American context, was wrong to take offence at Suarez's language. There is no place for racial insults, however intended, in modern football with the strides it has taken in extracting this cancer in the last 25 years.

But, as Tim Vickery mentioned in an excellent article on the same subject before the ruling, the FA had a perfect chance to demonstrate their ability to adapt to the demands of modern football. Taking Suarez in front of the board, explaining that such language can be construed in negative ways in England and handing out a light warning would have sent the player a clear message while not castigating him for his linguistic faux pas.

In throwing the book at the Uruguayan, however, the ruling body has demonstrated an ignorance and clumsiness when faced with cultural sensitivities which has made it the object of outrage in one of the world's most inclusive football nations.

Suarez's ban may be another step on the road to the English Premier League's enlightenment when it comes to racial controversies, but it also proves that when faced with a question of cultural understanding and compromise in a globalised football world, their attitude remains indisputably in the stone age."

By Daniel Edwards in Buenos Aires
 
i'm a tall white man, but if someone of a different ethnic background to me was my opponent in a football match and ran around calling me a little white man and insulting me, then yeah, i'd say that was pretty racist.

calling me a little white man and insulting me - - - - Yeah sure, if he was insulting you as well by adding 4 letter words etc., but he didn't, he was doing exactly what happens on footie pitches every single day of the year - winding up an opponent. But racist? Nope, not in my book, and I have lived all over the world, been called untold names, and laughed in their faces for being so childish. Evra really needs to grow a pair + a sense of humour, he is the ultimate wimp that uses his 'colour to extremes, now THAT guy does have a problem.
 
It has been widely reported, for example, that Evra called Suarez a "South American" or "Sudaca" before receiving his perceived insult, and the latter especially is horribly demeaning for those from the continent who have chosen to pursue their lives in Europe.

If this is true, then it does change things. tbh, a hearing in which both players were present, forced to talk to each other, then probably both given a warning on future conduct, sounds more appropriate.
 
calling me a little white man and insulting me - - - - Yeah sure, if he was insulting you as well by adding 4 letter words etc., but he didn't, he was doing exactly what happens on footie pitches every single day of the year - winding up an opponent. But racist? Nope, not in my book, and I have lived all over the world, been called untold names, and laughed in their faces for being so childish. Evra really needs to grow a pair + a sense of humour, he is the ultimate wimp that uses his 'colour to extremes, now THAT guy does have a problem.
Hmmm. These things are not so simple. A black person from the Caribbean visiting relatives in the UK is likely to dismiss racist abuse as not worthy of their consideration, and perhaps even to be puzzled by the reaction of their black British relatives to the abuse. But if you grow up in a racist society, it is harder to dismiss such things.

Whether they want to or not, people can internalise racist attitudes, and that can make racist abuse especially hurtful. If you have grown up without having to confront racism, you won't have internalised it, so you're far less likely to be emotionally affected by racist abuse.

Patrice Evra grew up in France. You can bet your arse he will have been confronted with a great deal of racism growing up there. Telling him to 'grow a pair' when you have not experienced such things yourself is not right. It shows your lack of understanding of the destructive force of racism, tbh.
 
calling me a little white man and insulting me - - - - Yeah sure, if he was insulting you as well by adding 4 letter words etc., but he didn't, he was doing exactly what happens on footie pitches every single day of the year - winding up an opponent. But racist? Nope, not in my book, and I have lived all over the world, been called untold names, and laughed in their faces for being so childish. Evra really needs to grow a pair + a sense of humour, he is the ultimate wimp that uses his 'colour to extremes, now THAT guy does have a problem.
winding up an opponent by calling him a little black man? niiiiice
 
Patrice Evra grew up in France. You can bet your arse he will have been confronted with a great deal of racism growing up there. Telling him to 'grow a pair' when you have not experienced such things yourself is not right. It shows your lack of understanding of the destructive force of racism, tbh.

I have already stated that I have 'grown up' in other countries, and trust me, I have had racial taunts thrown at me from a child and up in France, Germany, Egypt, Spain. Malaysia - need I go on? If anything it made me tougher and taught me to deal with what I then perceived to be bullying. Yep, I was the freckled, ginger kid that was the butt of so many jokes regarding the colour of my skin/hair. Don't assume to know me! :)
 
Don't even compare ginger 'racism' to black. There ain't the same history of repression/slavery. Obviously its wrong but its different.
 
I didn't say the culture was extremely racist. But I do disagree that these kinds of differences are merely differences of degree. It is in many ways differently racist.

But anyway, about the subject of the thread, I'm not sure what I think. 'negrito' and 'nigger' are not the same thing, not at all, and what Suarez did is not at all the same as for instance what Ron the racist Atkinson said. But LFC's unqualified support of him seems misjudged to me. No need to vilify Suarez, but at the same time, perhaps a need from him and Liverpool to show some contrition. Claiming it is all down to a cultural misunderstanding is disingenuous.
Like I said earlier, even in Uruguay referring to someone during an argument as "negrito" would be disparaging, even if some might not consider it racist. Use of racial language for disparaging effect fulfills my criteria for racist abuse.
 
I can understand why ginger people get miffed with taunts about being ginger. I would say that it's not quite the same as black people being taunted for being black, though. The power relations and historical baggage are totally different.

I don't assume I know you, but I guessed correctly from your 'grow a pair' remark that you weren't a black person who had grown up in a predominantly white society.
 
Like I said earlier, even in Uruguay referring to someone during an argument as "negrito" would be disparaging, even if some might not consider it racist.
Yep, absolutely. The 'I'm Uruguayan, so it's ok' argument is piss-poor, imo.

However, if it was a response to a 'sudaca' taunt, I can see how he might have considered it a 'tit-for-tat' response. Not excusing it, but if Evra did say sudaca, that does change things, I think.
 
The link between race and class are even more pronounced in Colombia and Venezuela(I would also say other countries in Latin America). Btw have you lived in Latin America? I can't believe you are dismissing what me and littlebabyjesus have been saying. I can search for academic journals backing up what we say. On the caste system in latin america I will use wikipedia for the now-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_Latin_America
I have not lived in Latin America, but I do know a lot of Latin Americans. I also know a lot of ex-pats with a smug tendency to think themselves superior to backward racist natives. The fact that in one country of Latin America there was an officially racial classification during colonial times is about as relevant as the same classifications made by British Imperialists during their colonial period.
 
Yep, absolutely. The 'I'm Uruguayan, so it's ok' argument is piss-poor, imo.

However, if it was a response to a 'sudaca' taunt, I can see how he might have considered it a 'tit-for-tat' response. Not excusing it, but if Evra did say sudaca, that does change things, I think.
If Evra said "sudaca", that's worse IMO.
 
I have not lived in Latin America, but I do know a lot of Latin Americans. I also know a lot of ex-pats with a smug tendency to think themselves superior to backward racist natives. The fact that in one country of Latin America there was an officially racial classification during colonial times is about as relevant as the same classifications made by British Imperialists during their colonial period.
Well I suggest that you don't dismiss the personal experiences of someone who has lived there. It was not just in Mexico that there was racial classification during colonial times. The names are still used in latin america to categorise someones race, that to me suggests that the racist culture left over from spanish colonialism still exists in latin america.
 
Well I suggest that you don't dismiss the personal experiences of someone who has lived there. It was not just in Mexico that there was racial classification during colonial times. The names are still used in latin america to categorise someones race, that to me suggests that the racist culture left over from spanish colonialism still exists in latin america.
I'm going to dismiss the opinions of anyone making blanket generalisations with fuck all by way of caveats or nuance. Especially when my personal experience of people from a part of the continent far similar to Uruguay (mostly Argentinians) is very different.
 
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