bimble
floofy
^ the nub of why so many women have gotten so cross. imo.
"Solidarity for both trans rights and women's rights" by Janine Booth
- Thread starter Fozzie Bear
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How on earth do you know how they present when they aren't at work or an awards ceremony? How many other people working in the city present as gender radicals?
Do butch lesbians reinforce gender?
bimble
floofy
How can you even ask that? No. One of my best mates is 'butch lesbian' and she's the only person i can talk to about this openly in real life. She is not 'identifying as a man' do you see, that's the point, she's a woman who wears checked shirts has a buzzcut etc.
What an extraordinary thing to say.
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
Why on earth would they?
bimble
floofy
The thing is last time we talked about this (butch gay friend) she said how glad she is that she didn't grow up now, in the age of tumblr, because she'd almost certainly (her view) have decided to have a double masectomy and identify as male etc, which she is not, she's just a gay woman.
How can you even ask that? No. One of my best mates is 'butch lesbian' and she's the only person i can talk to about this openly in real life. She is not 'identifying as a man' do you see, that's the point, she's a woman who wears checked shirts has a buzzcut etc.
Pippa doesn't identify as a woman but as gender fluid. It seems strange to me that someone who is biologically male, who identifies as gender fluid and presents as feminine is a gender conservative, but someone who is biologically female who identifies as a butch lesbian and presents as masculine is a gender radical.
Athos
Well-Known Member
No, they reject gender norms altogether (rather than choosing to adopt the gender norms more usually associated with the other sex). The show that women can be masculine, rather than equating masculinity to manhood.
bimble
floofy
Do you not understand the difference between being a woman who has short hair who is into mechanics or whatever and 'identifying as a man' ? On their woman days the person who goes by 'pippa' is identifying as a woman ? Or not? if not then why are they not just 'a bloke in a dress'?
I would really like to get where you're coming from because i think maybe we could learn from each other's points of view.
'
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Its astonishing the number of people who say this and yet only a tiny handful of young people are doing that. Less than one in ten thousand.
I'm not talking about someone who idenitifies as a woman in this case. Pip identifies as gender fluid but often presents in a stereotypically feminine way. Butch lesbains present in a stereotypically masculine way, that's what butch means. Yet one is being attacked as the worst kind of gender conformist and the other celebrated for defying gender conformity. I find that difficult to square.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Or maybe they just like sensible shoes, trousers, easily manageable short hair, and not being bothered about fashion. None of that strikes me as necessarily 'masculine'.
bimble
floofy
I really want to know what happens next, where we'll be with this whole thing in say 20 years. I think there's room for optimism still, like last week i saw a bunch of young people all dressed up from a local LGBT festival all of them in glitter and tutus and it made me feel hopeful that we might just manage through all of us non binary and having fun with the whole thing. But the sharp increase of young girls going to specialist services regarding gender does not make me glad.
^ tavistock clinic
^ tavistock clinic
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Thimble Queen
Called away to another place
Butch women can be incredibly stylish and fashionable... I'm not sure why being butch means not being bothered about fashion
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The particular person referred to was spoken of wearing check shirts. Finding a look and sticking with it would perhaps be a better way to put it. Personally, I don't think check shirts are massively stylish, but each to their own. I'm not bothered about looking stylish.Butch women can be incredibly stylish and fashionable... I'm not sure why being butch means not being bothered about fashion
Perhaps blacking up will become acceptable as race fluid. There’ll be no grounds to challenge it.
Thimble Queen
Called away to another place
Tbf they are pretty much a staple but meh.
bimble
floofy
I was thinking about this thread whilst at tescos earlier (as you do). I didn't see one woman wearing a dress or skirt or high heels, just people doing their shopping, in jeans / trousers and a t shirt or vest.
Is it down to the cut of your jeans now whether or not you're 'presenting as feminine' / gender non conforming ?
Do we all have to cut our hair a certain way or buy particular scented products from the bathroom isle to pick an identity?
This would be absurd surely. You go to a shop and buy a pair of jeans, it would be a lot more work to find mens jeans / men's shoes that fit so
Is it down to the cut of your jeans now whether or not you're 'presenting as feminine' / gender non conforming ?
Do we all have to cut our hair a certain way or buy particular scented products from the bathroom isle to pick an identity?
This would be absurd surely. You go to a shop and buy a pair of jeans, it would be a lot more work to find mens jeans / men's shoes that fit so
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Then what does butch mean?
Not of stereotypically female build/presentation.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
There's a difference between gender expression and gender dysphoria tho isn't there?
I have short hair, largely fancy/date women, often dress quite butch and take more of an interest in football than in fashion. But if I woke up one day and found all my female parts had gone and I had grown a cock and balls I wouldn't really be happy about it. In fact I would be seriously freaking out and unhappy with it, even though I am quite a butch woman I still wouldn't want to be a man or have male genitalia.
I have short hair, largely fancy/date women, often dress quite butch and take more of an interest in football than in fashion. But if I woke up one day and found all my female parts had gone and I had grown a cock and balls I wouldn't really be happy about it. In fact I would be seriously freaking out and unhappy with it, even though I am quite a butch woman I still wouldn't want to be a man or have male genitalia.
Athos
Well-Known Member
What about if it was just for 24 hours? Probably just long enough to negotiate a 30% pay rise.
bimble
floofy
Is there a difference between 'gender expression' and 'gender identity' is more what we've been grappling with re the Bunce i think.
That's leaving aside the whole thing of whether either of those concepts 'make' a woman / man.
I never would have guessed you were interested in football frogwoman
That's leaving aside the whole thing of whether either of those concepts 'make' a woman / man.
I never would have guessed you were interested in football frogwoman
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Is it possible to say to hell with fucking gender expression - that's not what I see myself as doing? That would be my point. Because surely that is a perfectly legitimate position to take. What's the alternative? That we have some kind of gender expression imposed on us from outside whether we like it or not? That strikes me as very reactionary and conservative thinking. I think it is reactionary and conservative binary thinking to think of butch lesbians as being 'masculine' in how they dress, tbh.Is there a difference between 'gender expression' and 'gender identity' is more what we've been grappling with re the Bunce i think.
That's leaving aside the whole thing of whether either of those concepts 'make' a woman / man.
I never would have guessed you were interested in football frogwoman
bimble
floofy
the way forward:
Chinese Red Army Uniform Outfit (Grey) [WG-TB-AD1206C-gry] ♣
Chinese Red Army Uniform Outfit (Grey) [WG-TB-AD1206C-gry] ♣
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JimW
支那暗杀团
Added advantage that the regular purges would allow you to shoot all the merchant bankers. Gender discourse has gone horribly backwards too, including army uniforms:
JimW
支那暗杀团
Think that dress uniform has been revised again and isn't quite so bad now but skirts still IIRC. Can't recall the exact dates, that was around 2000 I think.What the heck is going on they look like air hostesses in sexy boots. When did the skirts come in?
bimble
floofy
Yes this. Obviously most humans do have "gender expression" imposed on us whether we like it or not.
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