"Solidarity for both trans rights and women's rights" by Janine Booth

[elbows]

This is also why I go on about everyones baggage on these threads. Collective baggage that also includes the baggage of those long since departed from this world. Its nobodies fault that this baggage exists, but certain people end up having to carry everyone elses, when they fail to stick to narrow constraints, or adopt the constraints associated with other gender roles, especially if done in a playful manner.

 

[bimble]

It's that RIDICULOUS head tilting and hair flicking that does it for me. I don't know why I find it so rage inducing (edit: scrap that I do, it's just pure sexism). Does he do that on his "man days" or is it a woman special? I wonder


.

That’s how I feel too. Don’t understand how anyone can find it progressive / inspiring when Bunce’s idea of woman is apparently flicking your hair keeping your knees together and giggling cutely.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This is also why I go on about everyones baggage on these threads. Collective baggage that also includes the baggage of those long since departed from this world. Its nobodies fault that this baggage exists, but certain people end up having to carry everyone elses, when they fail to stick to narrow constraints, or adopt the constraints associated with other gender roles, especially if done in a playful manner.

Thing is, I disagree with Miranda Yardley on many things, but I do agree with them on this point. If Bunce were simply to say that he likes dressing up in drag cos it's fun or whatever, then we could all get behind him for being brave enough to do it in public. And yes, then address him as 'she' on his lady days, why not?

This was the point of the comparison with Grayson Perry, who makes no claims whatever about his drag persona aside from that he does it because it gives him a thrill.

Bunce is reactionary while Perry is subversive, it seems to me, precisely because Perry makes no claims.

 

[Spymaster]

I don’t care about toilets but wonder if on woman days they make the tea and don’t talk over people in meetings.

Well the point is how far are employers and colleagues expected to accommodate this?

One day male next day female and look at him in that vid you posted; ridiculous. It's no more than a drag act and a pretty vapid one at that. Tilts head coquettishly, giggles a bit, and tries to find as many different ways possible of saying the same thing ("people should be who they are") in 2 minutes.

He's not any part woman. He's taking the piss out of women.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

What irks me the most is how individualistic and narcissistic it is.
It’s all about ME!

 

[LDC]

What irks me the most is how individualistic it is.
It’s all about ME!

Welcome to much of what passes for current politics. Me and how I feel.

Any wonder it's taken such a hold in these capitalist hyper-individualist times?

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Well the point is how far are employers and colleagues expected to accommodate this?

One day male next day female and look at him in that vid you posted; ridiculous. It's no more than a drag act and a pretty vapid one at that. Tilts head coquettishly, giggles a bit, and tries to find as many different ways possible of saying the same thing ("people should be who they are") in 2 minutes.

He's not any part woman. He's taking the piss out of women.

Yes, and the two people "interviewing" them are a disgrace too.

 

[LDC]

Yes, and the two people "interviewing" them are a disgrace too.

Yeah for sure, but no more of a disgrace and vomit inducing than pretty much any awards ceremony interviewer surely?

Given we've grown up in a largely homophobic culture I do think we need to be careful we're not reserving more vitriol for certain people based on some sub-conscious level of homophobia with things like this. (Not suggesting you are, but I sometimes have to check my own reactions if I'm honest, especially with some trans stuff.)

 

[killer b]

Hmm. Doesn't take long for disgust at a man in a dress to rear it's head, when the opportunity arises.

 

[smokedout]

I would call Divine 'he', for instance - it was clear that he was a transvestite man, not someone who wished to be regarded as a woman. Similarly here.

Is it clear that Pip regards herself as a transvestite man and not someone who wishes to be regarded as a woman?

Thing is, I disagree with Miranda Yardley on many things, but I do agree with them on this point. If Bunce were simply to say that he likes dressing up in drag cos it's fun or whatever, then we could all get behind him for being brave enough to do it in public. And yes, then address him as 'she' on his lady days, why not?

This was the point of the comparison with Grayson Perry, who makes no claims whatever about his drag persona aside from that he does it because it gives him a thrill.

Bunce is reactionary while Perry is subversive, it seems to me, precisely because Perry makes no claims.

So your acceptance of trans or non-binary people is based on them agreeing with your analysis of gender?

 

[Spymaster]

Hmm. Doesn't take long for disgust at a man in a dress to rear it's head, when the opportunity arises.

That's not what's annoying people though. It's a bloke in a dress and make-up who's a woman when he fancies???

My arse.

Some people here have completely lost the fucking plot.

 

[killer b]

Sure sure. A load of people suddenly just happen to pile into the thread as soon as there's someone acceptable to point & laugh at.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So your acceptance of trans or non-binary people is based on them agreeing with your analysis of gender?

I have some pretty big problems with some of the labels in this, including 'non-binary', tbh. In a similar way maybe to the way that others bristle at the term 'cis', I think I bristle a little at being referred to as 'binary', particularly when the 'non-binary' person in question is only non-binary in the sense of performative aspects of gender, not in any way in terms of sex.

 

[bimble]

In other news.. The keynote speaker at the BFI's upcoming 'Women In Film' event was announced yesterday to be.. Monroe Bergdorff, who has been involved in making one documentary, about themselves and their transition.
Leading to this: Petition Open Letter to the British Film Institute
A predictable outcome to a bad choice imo.

 

[Spymaster]

Sure sure. A load of people suddenly just happen to pile into the thread as soon as there's someone acceptable to point & laugh at.

You don't reckon that there have been loads of people watching this thread since it started and holding their tongues for fear of upsetting people then? And that some of those people just think that Pippa fucking Bunce is a step too far???

 

[killer b]

You don't reckon that there have been loads of people watching this thread since it started and holding their tongues for fear of upsetting people then? And that some of those people just think that Pippa fucking Bunce is a step too far???

As if you give the slightest fuck about upsetting people.

 

[Spymaster]

As if you give the slightest fuck about upsetting people.

If he wants to argue for the right to be an occasional transvestite, that's one thing. But pretending that he's actually a part time woman and is therefore able to speak for women???

GTF.

 

[killer b]

If he wants to argue for the right to be an occasional transvestite, that's one thing. But pretending that he's actually a part time woman and is therefore able to speak for women???

GTF.

I'd agree that's an issue, one which deserves challenge and examination. I don't think this means it's ok to then rip into how they present as a woman.

 

[Edie]

This is also why I go on about everyones baggage on these threads. Collective baggage that also includes the baggage of those long since departed from this world. Its nobodies fault that this baggage exists, but certain people end up having to carry everyone elses, when they fail to stick to narrow constraints, or adopt the constraints associated with other gender roles, especially if done in a playful manner.

I’m sorry but that is just offensive.

This is a man parodying being a woman, purporting to represent us in boardrooms, and literally SPEAK for us. And this a mere single generation from when women couldn’t work in certain jobs, couldn’t buy a property without a mans signature, couldn’t compete and be recognised in sports, when unmarried women had their babies taken from them, and domestic violence and rape wasn’t even recognised as a crime. Is that what you mean by baggage?

I’m no fan of boardroom feminism, I think the real fight lies in the recognition of women’s silent unpaid, undervalued work in the Home and community with children and the elderly. But even in the rarified world of the boardroom for a man to appropriate being a woman and get accolades for doing it is both insane and completely belittles what women have fight for.

He doesn’t speak for women, playfully or otherwise. We’ve had enough of being spoken for.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Sure sure. A load of people suddenly just happen to pile into the thread as soon as there's someone acceptable to point & laugh at.

I'm not pointing and laughing. I'm fucking outraged that this person dares to speak on behalf of women.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Hmm. Doesn't take long for disgust at a man in a dress to rear it's head, when the opportunity arises.

Bollocks. And insulting, frankly, to dismiss people like that. This isn't a random person - it is the Natwest LBGT Inspirational Leader Award winner.

 

[frogwoman]

Are they actually arguing that though? I had a look at their timeline on Twitter and most of it seemed to be about gender fluidity rather than claiming they were a woman and speaking for women, they also describe themselves as a 'proud father and lucky husband' which seems a bit odd if they are really claiming to speak for women. They were given a 'female' award by the FT but it seems to me that these Awards are symbolic rather than anything else.

 

[elbows]

I’m sorry but that is just offensive.

We need some room in this thread not to jump to the highest levels of taking offence, because I have seen (and very much been part of) that in previous threads and it is an extreme dead end.

You've used a number of terms that I find offensive on this thread, but I bit my tongue. I will continue to do so. I will not be quiet about baggage.

edited to add - to be clear, calling all manner of things baggage is not supposed to downplay the issues, to dismiss them as utter crap that people hold onto for no good reason. Not at all. It is just a reflection that all manner of peoples behaviour and attitude towards their own sex, gender and sense of self has to carry the burden of other peoples baggage. Its inevitable. It cannot be prevented. It can be taken into account though, and I feel no shame in urging caution as a result of these phenomenon.

 

[killer b]

Bollocks. And insulting, frankly, to dismiss people like that. This isn't a random person - it is the Natwest LBGT Inspirational Leader Award winner.

There's people talking with insight and sensitivity about the Natwest LGBT Inspirational Award winner, who I'm not dismissing at all. It's those who've had no previous input in the thread suddenly appearing, wondering where they go to the toilet.

 

[Edie]

Are they actually arguing that though? I had a look at their timeline on Twitter and most of it seemed to be about gender fluidity rather than claiming they were a woman and speaking for women, they also describe themselves as a 'proud father and lucky husband' which seems a bit odd if they are really claiming to speak for women. They were given a 'female' award by the FT but it seems to me that these Awards are symbolic rather than anything else.

He claims to be a woman, accepts women’s awards, sits as a woman as a member of the European Women’s Network/IT Women’s Council.

This isn’t ‘symbolic’, he is claiming to be a woman, speaking ‘as a woman’, and using that to leverage his power.

 

[frogwoman]

He claims to be a woman, accepts women’s awards, sits as a woman as a member of the European Women’s Network/IT Women’s Council.

This isn’t ‘symbolic’, he is claiming to be a woman, speaking ‘as a woman’, and using that to leverage his power.

Are they though? I'm not saying you are wrong but the media do tend to sensationalise things and on that profile they seem to call themselves 'Mx' rather than terms like 'Mr' or 'Mrs'. Do you have a link to them doing this because a look at their twitter profile shows them calling themselves a husband and father and using gender neutral descriptions?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Are they though? I'm not saying you are wrong but the media do tend to sensationalise things and on that profile they seem to call themselves 'Mx' rather than terms like 'Mr' or 'Mrs'. Do you have a link to them doing this because a look at their twitter profile shows them calling themselves a husband and father and using gender neutral descriptions?

Bunce is listed here, in something called the 'Top 50 Female Champions of Women in Business'. No. 21.

 

[Spymaster]

There's people talking with insight and sensitivity about the Natwest LGBT Inspirational Award winner, who I'm not dismissing at all. It's those who've had no previous input in the thread suddenly appearing, wondering where they go to the toilet.

That'll be me then. I’ve had no previous input because if I had I’d have started a row with the likes of you and LBJ and a few other MEN who’ve been bouncing along quite merrily posting about what WOMEN should and shouldn’t find acceptable.

 

[killer b]

That'll be me then. I’ve had no previous input because if I had I’d have started a row with the likes of you and LBJ and a few other MEN who’ve been bouncing along quite merrily posting about what WOMEN should and shouldn’t find acceptable.

I see you've finally decided to take the plunge.

 

[Spymaster]

I see you've finally decided to take the plunge.

Yeah, and this is from Sainsbury’s. Wait til I get home.