"Solidarity for both trans rights and women's rights" by Janine Booth

[frogwoman]

Bunce is listed here, in something called the 'Top 50 Female Champions of Women in Business'. No. 21.

They're number 21? And seem to be the only transgender person in that list.

 

[elbows]

I've changed my mind. I will stop going on about baggage if it is widely seen as another instance of a man downplaying womens concerns.

edit - and this isnt a poll, I dont need feedback. I will stop using the term for now and go back into learning mode.

 

[smokedout]

He claims to be a woman, accepts women’s awards, sits as a woman as a member of the European Women’s Network/IT Women’s Council.

This isn’t ‘symbolic’, he is claiming to be a woman, speaking ‘as a woman’, and using that to leverage his power.

Neither of those organisations appears to exist. There is a European Professional Women’s Network, which has over 3500 members, so if Pip is a member of that it's not in a role claiming to speak for women. In fact, and I'm not spending all day googling, I can't find any example of her speaking for women but can find several of her speaking for gender fluid and LGBT people.

 

[frogwoman]

I can see that it would be a problem if every single person on that list was a trans woman but that's not happened here has it, Bunce literally seems to be the only one? Is there ever a time where it would be acceptable for a trans person to win an award or a competition under their acquired gender?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I can see that it would be a problem if every single person on that list was a trans woman but that's not happened here has it, Bunce literally seems to be the only one? Is there ever a time where it would be acceptable for a trans person to win an award or a competition under their acquired gender?

Is Bunce a trans woman? Accepting such a broad definition so that it includes men who are part-time transvestites seems to me to dilute the term so much that it becomes meaningless. It literally includes 'a man in a dress'.

 

[elbows]

Is there ever a time where it would be acceptable for a trans person to win an award or a competition under their acquired gender?

Acceptable to some, yes. Acceptable to those who will continue to see anyone playing with gender fluidity as somehow mocking women, unlikely.

 

[frogwoman]

Is Bunce a trans woman? Accepting such a broad definition so that it includes men who are part-time transvestites seems to me to dilute the term so much that it becomes meaningless. It literally includes 'a man in a dress'.

I don't know. But that wasn't really the point I was making.

 

[Spymaster]

I can see that it would be a problem if every single person on that list was a trans woman but that's not happened here has it, Bunce literally seems to be the only one? Is there ever a time where it would be acceptable for a trans person to win an award or a competition under their acquired gender?

He's not a woman. He's a bloke who sometimes dresses like a woman and attempts to appropriate aspects of womanhood.

 

[smokedout]

Is Bunce a trans woman? Accepting such a broad definition so that it includes men who are part-time transvestites seems to me to dilute the term so much that it becomes meaningless. It literally includes 'a man in a dress'.

Presumably the people behind that award accept submissions from people who are non binary/gender fluid. Perhaps people should take that up with them if they don't like it, rather than attacking an individual.

 

[frogwoman]

since when did people on urban care about business awards, lol.

 

[JimW]

Highlights an issue with self ID for me if (genuine question) it means Bunce can claim that status (speaking for women) and it's up to the rest of us to adjust.

 

[elbows]

Highlights an issue with self ID for me if (genuine question) it means Bunce can claim that status (speaking for women) and it's up to the rest of us to adjust.

If Bunce claims that then it can certainly be added to a raft of issues stemming from 'fluid into binary does not fit'.

 

[Wilf]

Not responding to any post in particular - and I'm a couple of pages back on the thread itself: with Bunce I don't give a fuck how they present themselves - certainly no jibes about men in a dress from. me. In fact as an individual in the workplace/public sphere, challenging simplistic perceptions of gender and identity is positive. All good, refreshing in a way. It's the assumption that his/her* performance puts him or her in any position to pronounce, to speak for. And on that point there's a process of solidification, his/her role as a banker fitting neatly into a bureaucratic perception of equality. The sort of recognition of 'diversity' dished up by local government, HR departments and the corporate end of the LGBT community. It's a gender fluidity that offers no challenge to power, but instead is compatible with power. It becomes solidified, codified and owned by those bodies. A safe fluidity that has no possibility of wider solidarity - certainly no link to structural issues.

* in this particular case 'his or her' is probably more appropriate than 'their'.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There is a subtle shift in terminology in a lot of this. A transvestite man is now a gender-fluid person, for instance. It essentialises the situation - instead of describing what a person does (in this case, a man wearing women's clothes), it somehow defines who a person is.

 

[Wilf]

JimW's post above says it better in terms of what I was on about regarding 'solidification'. Ironically, this way of presenting fluidity acts to stop conversations.

 

[smokedout]

There is a subtle shift in terminology in a lot of this. A transvestite man is now a gender-fluid person, for instance. It essentialises the situation - instead of describing what a person does (in this case, a man wearing women's clothes), it somehow defines who a person is.

I picked "gender fluid" as my preferred identity term about four years ago. Some of the old fashioned horrible terms like transvestite have a lot of negative connotations. I knew I didn’t like those, it didn’t quite encapsulate how I felt. I am swishing around between my gender expression and thought that “gender fluid” is a really good representation.

Transformed: The Credit Suisse director known as Pippa and Philip

 

[Athos]

He describes himself as straight, which, given he's happily married to a woman, must mean he considers himself to be a man. It follows that, on some days, he's literally a man in a dress (which is a fact, not a slur). That's great, that he's not not so in thrall to gender that he's constrained by the stereotypes society seeks to impose upon him becasue of his sex. Actually far more progressive than the idea that, on the days he giggles coquettishly and tilts his head to one side, he must be a woman. And, in fairness, as long as he doesn't use that cross-dressing to e.g. take places reserved for women, more power to him in breaking down gender. I've not seen him purport to speak for women.

 

[pengaleng]

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Grayson Perry calls himself a transvestite, fwiw. It's a more informative label than 'gender-fluid', imo. I don't see that 'gender-fluid' means all that much tbh.

 

[bimble]

Prefer ‘fluid’ to non binary, that one pisses me off tbh.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Prefer ‘fluid’ to non binary, that one pisses me off tbh.

Ironically, Bunce strikes me as extremely binary. Transvesticism is itself a result of growing up within a binary.

 

[smokedout]

Grayson Perry calls himself a transvestite, fwiw. It's a more informative label than 'gender-fluid', imo. I don't see that 'gender-fluid' means all that much tbh.

It's a word that carriage a lot of baggage and implies a sexual motive, which Grayson as a fetisishist, acknowledges. Perhaps some people feel it doesn't describe them , really who are you to tell them otherwise? Do you police the language of other marginalised groups in this way?

 

[frogwoman]

Not responding to any post in particular - and I'm a couple of pages back on the thread itself: with Bunce I don't give a fuck how they present themselves - certainly no jibes about men in a dress from. me. In fact as an individual in the workplace/public sphere, challenging simplistic perceptions of gender and identity is positive. All good, refreshing in a way. It's the assumption that his/her* performance puts him or her in any position to pronounce, to speak for. And on that point there's a process of solidification, his/her role as a banker fitting neatly into a bureaucratic perception of equality. The sort of recognition of 'diversity' dished up by local government, HR departments and the corporate end of the LGBT community. It's a gender fluidity that offers no challenge to power, but instead is compatible with power. It becomes solidified, codified and owned by those bodies. A safe fluidity that has no possibility of wider solidarity - certainly no link to structural issues.

* in this particular case 'his or her' is probably more appropriate than 'their'.

Pretty much all the people listed on that list are leveraging their identity in some way for capitalism though.

 

[smokedout]

Random calls himself a homosexual, fwiw. It's a more informative label than 'gay', imo. I don't see that 'gay' means all that much tbh.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's a word that carriage a lot of baggage and implies a sexual motive, which Grayson as a fetisishist, acknowledges. Perhaps some people feel it doesn't describe them , really who are you to tell them otherwise? Do you police the language of other marginalised groups in this way?

See this is part of the problem. Suddenly this man in a position of huge power and privilege is part of a marginalised group. He is very very very very far from marginalised.

And the point here is that you describing yourself in a particular way implies that others are not that thing, otherwise the description wouldn't mean anything. This is exactly the shit that pisses off those that are gender-critical.

 

[smokedout]

See this is part of the problem. Suddenly this man in a position of huge power and privilege is part of a marginalised group.

They are an invetsment banker. I hope they die in a fire. But try walking through a city centre on a Saturday night looking like that and tell me if you feel marginalised or not?

And the point here is that you describing yourself in a particular way implies that others are not that thing, otherwise the description wouldn't mean anything.

Yes calling yourself gender fluid, which they explain means their gender presentation fluctuates, means that people whose gender doesn't fluctuate aren't that thing. What's wrong, do you want to be called gender fluid as well, despite your presentation being solely gender conforming and in line with your assigned sex?

 

[bimble]

Yes calling yourself gender fluid, which they explain means their gender presentation fluctuates, means that people whose gender doesn't fluctuate aren't that thing. What's wrong, do you want to be called gender fluid as well, despite your presentation being solely gender conforming and in line with your assigned sex?

How does that work with 'non binary' do you think?

 

[Athos]

They are an invetsment banker. I hope they die in a fire. But try walking through a city centre on a Saturday night looking like that and tell me if you feel marginalised or not?

But he picks and chooses when to where a dress, so doesn't have to walk through a city centre dressed like that on a Saturdy night. Unlike women, who don't get to choose whether or not they're recognised as women when they go out on a Saturday night, and are often harrased as such.

 

[bimble]

Really enjoyed that.
But err.. still when she said 'gender is not a social construct' i'm like ok then what is it then ?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes calling yourself gender fluid, which they explain means their gender presentation fluctuates, means that people whose gender doesn't fluctuate aren't that thing. What's wrong, do you want to be called gender fluid as well, despite your presentation being solely gender conforming and in line with your assigned sex?

He strikes me as extremely gender-binary, probably more so than me. He presents as a very conventionally 'male' male or a very conventionally 'female' female. It's not subversive of gender at all. If anything it reinforces gender if he is asking for his 'female' presentation to be taken seriously. And the fact that some people take offence at his caricatured portrayal of a 'woman' is partly, I would suggest, because he isn't just playing the role for fun or kicks as a drag queen might say of his caricature. He's taking up a place on lists of successful women, ffs.