"Solidarity for both trans rights and women's rights" by Janine Booth
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bimble
floofy
This was upcheering:
Skirts for Sweden male train drivers
Skirts for Sweden male train drivers
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Or... people have their lack of or rejection of gender expression interpreted as a gender expression ('you look masculine' to a woman, for instance), whether they like it or not.
I came across this art project a bit ago which aims to replace all clothing with a single unisex jump-suit. This article about it in the paris review is interesting.
Athos
Well-Known Member
What do you mean by 'gender expression' here? Because, if it's just how you are expected to look, isn't that just (part of) 'gender'?
bimble
floofy
Really good thank you.I hope they never get the money together to take an ad out in Vogue.
You might want to tell butch lesbians that.
I think you're mangling language to suit your own agenda now, butch is a synonym of masculine. They literally mean the same thing.
And you might not see yourself as having a gender expression but like it or not the rest of the world does if you present as typically male. I understand the objection to the idea of an inherent gender identity but to pretend gender expression or presentation doesn't exist strikes me as daft at best and at worst an attempt by gender conforming people to claim they are all cool and anti-gender whist facing none of the negative consequences of actually not presenting in their assigned gender.
bimble
floofy
Was just using it cos Bunce does, and its come up.
I don't know of any other instance in which 'expression' isn't supposed to mean something that innately exists inside finding a way of communication out. But I don't think the clothes in the 2 sections of H & M or whatever express anything of interest about the insides of the infinite variety of human personality . Some people clearly do think that though.
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littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I think there can be an obsession with seeing everything through a lens of gender, when that isn't what many people are doing much of the time. I have a good friend who has assumptions made about her all the time due to how she presents herself, usually with people assuming that she is a lesbian. She's not that bothered by it, but she's not a lesbian, and she also doesn't consciously try to dress 'masculine'. Most of the time, she just doesn't have any particular kind of 'gender expression'. And imo it isn't helpful when people attach gender labels to everything. It just means that all of us have to remain stuck in this hole whether we want to be here or not.
Is there a viewpoint here that male, or masculine, is a default, whereas feminine is an active aberration? So a butch lesbian is just being like a normal human (a masculine man who doesn't do gender) whereas a feminine gender fluid person is actively doing gender and as such must be condemned?
Can we define gender fluid? I think people are just making stuff up as they go along but admittedly I’m ignorant of it. Someone once told me they were and I just thought they were a privileged prick trying to reposition them self as oppressed.
I wouldn't say that camp is a synonym for feminine or that camp gay men adopt the typical gender presentation of women.
bimble
floofy
But you would say that of butch lesbians because.. everyone can wear checked shirts / trousers but camp men don't buy pink skirts?
Is it mostly about what products you buy to express your identity through?
elbows
Well-Known Member
Would the word sissy be more likely to qualify?
Well in this case gender fluid means someone whose gender presentation varies.
JimW
支那暗杀团
Butch women seem to be sometimes appropriating aspects of masculine dress codes and making it something of their own rather than trying to perform as men though, so not synonymous either. Bunce seems to be doing something else.
No, because butch lesbians often refer to themselves as masculine. and butch means masculine, camp doesn't
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
In this particular case, it means a transvestite man. 'transvestite' accurately describes what Bunce does in a way that 'gender fluid' doesn't. He is a man who likes to dress up as a woman sometimes. Not sure it's any more complicated than that. He may not like the term, but he's replaced it with one that is considerably less helpful in letting people know what it is describing.
Athos
Well-Known Member
It's possible to conform to social convention without feeling what others interpret you to be; just ask a closeted gay person. Females that dress in a way society expects of women, don't necessarily consider themsleves to have the 'gender identity' of woman.
I find much of the terminology excruciating, and there's sometimes an air of this going on - but I think on the whole it's positive that more people are challenging traditional gender roles. Concepts like gender fluid, non-binary and the like give people a way to do that, while at the same time confusing, embarrassing and/or enraging most people over 40.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Gender nonconformist would seem a better label. An explicit rejection of the strictures of gender, rather than some ill-defined term that suggests positioning oneself somewhere else within those strictures.
Some do, some don't, same as gender fluid femme people.
I wouldn't say it's a perfectly precise comparison, it's not. What I'm interested in is the vast chasm which makes Bunce someone "we can all agree" deserves mockery, condemnation and speculation of a sexual motive due to their active support of the gender binary whereas suggesting a butch lesbian does something very similar is met with howls of outrage
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The bit you've missed is that Bunce is presenting himself as effectively a 'part-time woman'. By doing that, he's actually reducing being a woman to clothing, hairstyle and makeup. You haven't given an equivalent counter-example.
That would work fine for me, but the kids have gone for genderqueer. I guess that's their prerogative.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Well, some things are a little confusing insofar as the daughter of a friend of mine identifies as non-binary while appearing in every way to me like an entirely normal (in terms of general outward presentation), very intelligent and thoughtful teenage girl.
When there’s no difference in presentation I wonder a bit what the term means.
Meaning the word ‘normal’ just to mean “well within the bounds of typical gender expectations”.
I agree with that. But not when it comes up on the oppression wheel when it’s simply a lifestyle choice. In that sense it does trans a disservice as gender dysphoria is an actual condition.
bimble
floofy
The more women don't have to wear makeup and heels to keep their jobs the better, bring it on please. More men wearing skirts (pleated or not) yes please. But is Bunce a woman on the days they wear a skirt and giggle coquetishly? No.
Is everyone who buys and wears things not typically marketed at their gender trans now ?
Is everyone who buys and wears things not typically marketed at their gender trans now ?
Athos
Well-Known Member
That's cool with me. I think rejecting gender is entirely positive. I just don't think a lot of what may superficially look like rejecting gender is; often it's the opposite. But, that's not to say that others don't entrench gender far more, without anyone batting an eyelid.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Bunce does the square total of fuck-all in bringing that on. A woman in his office who comes to work in flats and trousers is doing far more, and quite possibly affecting her promotion chances in the process so that she won't ever get to the senior position Bunce has reached as a man. Maybe she should wear a tie and start calling herself Bruce on Tuesdays? Put on a fake beard? How would that go down in the bank, I wonder?
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