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Is the Left Wing more truthful than the Right Wing, and if so, why?

I read Jonathan Haidt's book after someone brought it up in Yom Kippur sermon a few years back, funnily enough.

I suppose on reflection I'm thinking less of a broad 'who is generally more truthful'? question and more 'it seems like the Left make up far fewer bullshit stories about the Right than vice versa, why is that?"
 
I read Jonathan Haidt's book after someone brought it up in Yom Kippur sermon a few years back, funnily enough.

I suppose on reflection I'm thinking less of a broad 'who is generally more truthful'? question and more 'it seems like the Left make up far fewer bullshit stories about the Right than vice versa, why is that?"

Maybe because they are making up stories you want to believe. ;)

But more seriously, they also have meme-smashing machines like 8chan etc. which give them a lot of continuous material (as mentioned earlier by another poster).
 
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Maybe because they are making up stories you want to believe. ;)
In all seriousness, this likely is a large part of it. All stories about reality are made up, after all. But where they accord with your prior expectations, you just accept them as real.
 
Maybe because they are making up stories you want to believe. ;)

But more seriously, they also have meme-smashing machines like 8chan etc. which give them a lot of continuous material (as mentioned earlier by another poster).
I try to be aware of that - I do fact check stuff I'm aware I want to believe and a couple of times it's turned out to an untruth, pixels or misattribution. Although it's interesting how with the latter two things often start as satire of the Right and then get well meaningly shared as actual quotes etc. I mean,I shared on a thread Trump's staggeringly offensive New Year's message to American Jews from his Truth app, but as I'd only seen a screen shot on social media I did check it had been reported in a few decent places because it could have been pixels. Unfortunately it was real.
 
Calling somebody a 'Tankie' is embarrassing.
As is the apparent inability of 'libertarians' to explain how their revolution would be different than other revolutions which had ambitions to bring the working class to power, nor address the distinct possibility that should they ever be faced with the reality of power they will cease to be libertarians out of sheer necessity.

This is maybe understandable, as why spend the effort when you know in advance that you're never going to have to put your ideas in practice in such a life-and -death situation anyway?
 
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With regard to the left and 'truth,' and seen as Kev is our very own Robert Conquest if bought off Wish, then as I've said before (and being utterly unoriginal), it's true that Stalin was a mass-murdering tyrant of astonishing proportions. It's true that millions hated him, and suffered for decades in silence with no political voice. It's also true that millions loved him. It's true that many were loyal to a system that they had a real stake in through social and vocational advancement and thanked his leadership for it. It's true that many suffered and died for that to happen. It's true he was someone who thought the Soviet system was the best one for eventually realising a communist world. It's also true that taking control of a state in the ruins of a former empire and then whipping the populace into the kind of society they wanted was a failure in the regard. It's a bit messy this reality business.
 
With regard to the left and 'truth,' and seen as Kev is our very own Robert Conquest if bought off Wish, then as I've said before (and being utterly unoriginal), it's true that Stalin was a mass-murdering tyrant of astonishing proportions. It's true that millions hated him, and suffered for decades in silence with no political voice. It's also true that millions loved him. It's true that many were loyal to a system that they had a real stake in through social and vocational advancement and thanked his leadership for it. It's true that many suffered and died for that to happen. It's true he was someone who thought the Soviet system was the best one for eventually realising a communist world. It's also true that taking control of a state in the ruins of a former empire and then whipping the populace into the kind of society they wanted was a failure in the regard. It's a bit messy this reality business.
Oh please. Millions loved Stalin, you say, yet you could be killed if you said otherwise. Millions maybe did, millions loved Hitler in the same way, and millions love Liz no 2. For a while, when it seemed appropriate, but so what? Massive crimes happened in the USSR, as you accept yourself, so when talking about truthfulness it would be good to acknowledge that fact. Most fans of Russian Communism didn't, don't and won't. Deliberately failing to face up to facts, pretending that black is white - that is what happened with Communist Parties the world over. Making excuses for such crimes is also dishonest, because nobody at the time knew really the consequences of their actions. Stalin certainly didn't, trusting in his pact with Nazi Germany, for instance. Did he really think the Soviet system was best, or was he a power-hungry despot?
Anyway, I must go and ring my mum now.
Byee.
Your sincerely
Robert Conquest
 
Oh please. Millions loved Stalin, you say, yet you could be killed if you said otherwise. Millions maybe did, millions loved Hitler in the same way, and millions love Liz no 2. For a while, when it seemed appropriate, but so what? Massive crimes happened in the USSR, as you accept yourself, so when talking about truthfulness it would be good to acknowledge that fact. Most fans of Russian Communism didn't, don't and won't. Deliberately failing to face up to facts, pretending that black is white - that is what happened with Communist Parties the world over. Making excuses for such crimes is also dishonest, because nobody at the time knew really the consequences of their actions. Stalin certainly didn't, trusting in his pact with Nazi Germany, for instance. Did he really think the Soviet system was best, or was he a power-hungry despot?
Anyway, I must go and ring my mum now.
Byee.
Your sincerely
Robert Conquest
Didn't the world Communist movement start acknowledging and debating the scale of the crimes of Stalin and Soviet Communism in 1956, with the ongoing process helping to tear it apart?

Stalin was a power-hungry despot who probably did think the Soviet system was the best. There isn't necessarily a contradiction.

You're not exactly being a admirably courageous truth-teller here, you know. It takes more than hackneyed tropes.
 
Oh please. Millions loved Stalin, you say, yet you could be killed if you said otherwise. Millions maybe did, millions loved Hitler in the same way, and millions love Liz no 2. For a while, when it seemed appropriate, but so what? Massive crimes happened in the USSR, as you accept yourself, so when talking about truthfulness it would be good to acknowledge that fact. Most fans of Russian Communism didn't, don't and won't. Deliberately failing to face up to facts, pretending that black is white - that is what happened with Communist Parties the world over. Making excuses for such crimes is also dishonest, because nobody at the time knew really the consequences of their actions. Stalin certainly didn't, trusting in his pact with Nazi Germany, for instance. Did he really think the Soviet system was best, or was he a power-hungry despot?
Anyway, I must go and ring my mum now.
Byee.
Your sincerely
Robert Conquest

You say you're a bit of a history buff on the USSR.

Historians aren't immune to the prevailing, dominant views of the ruling classes of the societies in which they live. They have their own biases and prejudices from the personal experiences of their lives, and which inform their decisions to research various particular aspects of history, what to focus on, what to disregard, what is deemed worthy and important for investigation, and peer-review isn't foolproof. Like all of us, they're trapped by the particularities of their lives. Their work can't be removed from their backgrounds.

Two of the more well-known in the last century were Richard Pipes and Moshe Lewin. Both had experience of genocidal Nazi violence, but their paths went in different directions. Pipes went westward to the US, Lewin earlier in life went east to the USSR, to escape the extermination that befell his family in occupied Poland/Lithuania. Pipes served in the US airforce, Lewin in the Red Army. Pipes' views on the Soviet Union were coloured by the threat posed by a predating Russian imperialism to Poland and informed his research into the origins of the Russian (Muscovite) state. Lewin's views were coloured by his experience within the USSR, and the system that literally saved him was also one he would eventually look at with a critical but hopeful eye.

Both looked at state politics, and both had useful insights to glean from their work. Pipes was also an elitist who had little interest in the lives of the masses and their significance to historical processes, he became a belligerent advisor in the US government and CIA, but underneath his anti-Communism was a distinctly Polish understanding of the Russian state and the centuries-old threat it posed. Because of that bias narrowing his interest, and while also acknowledging his political views, his contribution to understanding the formation and development of the Russian state the Communists later seized control of are worthwhile.

Lewin looked at the state-driven modernisation processes the USSR (and its relations with the broad masses) underwent during the Stalin era, which would inform his research into alternative paths that might've been taken or still could be taken, from old economic and political debates within and without the party before Stalin's policies of accelerated industrial development. Lewin was no fan of Stalinism but recognised its dynamism and also saw how unsustainable it was without the use of coercion. The Soviet Union was a flawed experiment that didn't have to become what it did.

When you say with arrogant self-regard, the USSR 'was like this,' who said it first? Why did they say it? What was it that informed their decision to investigate that thing in the first place, what had an important mediating influence on them?

STALIN BAD MAN.

shrugs
 
You say you're a bit of a history buff on the USSR.

Historians aren't immune to the prevailing, dominant views of the ruling classes of the societies in which they live. They have their own biases and prejudices from the personal experiences of their lives, and which inform their decisions to research various particular aspects of history, what to focus on, what to disregard, what is deemed worthy and important for investigation, and peer-review isn't foolproof. Like all of us, they're trapped by the particularities of their lives. Their work can't be removed from their backgrounds.

Two of the more well-known in the last century were Richard Pipes and Moshe Lewin. Both had experience of genocidal Nazi violence, but their paths went in different directions. Pipes went westward to the US, Lewin earlier in life went east to the USSR, to escape the extermination that befell his family in occupied Poland/Lithuania. Pipes served in the US airforce, Lewin in the Red Army. Pipes' views on the Soviet Union were coloured by the threat posed by a predating Russian imperialism to Poland and informed his research into the origins of the Russian (Muscovite) state. Lewin's views were coloured by his experience within the USSR, and the system that literally saved him was also one he would eventually look at with a critical but hopeful eye.

Both looked at state politics, and both had useful insights to glean from their work. Pipes was also an elitist who had little interest in the lives of the masses and their significance to historical processes, he became a belligerent advisor in the US government and CIA, but underneath his anti-Communism was a distinctly Polish understanding of the Russian state and the centuries-old threat it posed. Because of that bias narrowing his interest, and while also acknowledging his political views, his contribution to understanding the formation and development of the Russian state the Communists later seized control of are worthwhile.

Lewin looked at the state-driven modernisation processes the USSR (and its relations with the broad masses) underwent during the Stalin era, which would inform his research into alternative paths that might've been taken or still could be taken, from old economic and political debates within and without the party before Stalin's policies of accelerated industrial development. Lewin was no fan of Stalinism but recognised its dynamism and also saw how unsustainable it was without the use of coercion. The Soviet Union was a flawed experiment that didn't have to become what it did.

When you say with arrogant self-regard, the USSR 'was like this,' who said it first? Why did they say it? What was it that informed their decision to investigate that thing in the first place, what had an important mediating influence on them?

STALIN BAD MAN.

shrugs
Lots to think about in that post . Thanks
 
No, you say I'm a bit of a history buff on the USSR, or a Poundland Robert Conquest or whatever. I don't.

Stalin was indeed a bad man. Well done. At least something positive has come out of this exchange.

You're confusing fact and interpretation here. Or seem to be. The facile justification of atrocity (it's for your own good) does not mean that the atrocity did not happen. Which is what so many on the left would have said back in the day.
 
Interesting discusssion.

On a different note.

Going back to Cloo

The Left makes a "whole less shit up" than the right

And "Many on the left seem to devote their energies to doing down their own side"

Starmer is example of a left of centre politician who made a whole load of shit up ( his ten pledges when he was trying to be leader) and doing down his own side ( example Jamie Driscoll. On the left of Labour party. Successful elected local politician and for spurious reason stopped from being a candidate.}

And he has largely got away with it in mainstream media. Seen as an adroit politician.

IMO this brings politics in disrepute. Makes me for one thinking that next election I will spoil my ballot.
 
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No, you say I'm a bit of a history buff on the USSR, or a Poundland Robert Conquest or whatever. I don't.

Stalin was indeed a bad man. Well done. At least something positive has come out of this exchange.

You're confusing fact and interpretation here. Or seem to be. The facile justification of atrocity (it's for your own good) does not mean that the atrocity did not happen. Which is what so many on the left would have said back in the day.
One of the better books I've read on Stalin's politics is Erik van Ree's The Political Thought of Joseph Stalin: A Study in Twentieth-Century Revolutionary Patriotism. Ree isn't a fan of 'the left,' either.
 
For me...
The left means:
The government runs the country with the intention of improving life for all. Even if that means I get less.

The right means:
The government runs the country to improve things for me. Fuck others so long as I'm better off.

How the media slant it...

The left:
A dictator wants to run every aspect of your life and give the rewards of your hard earned graft to those who don't deserve it. Individual freedom is secondary to the state.

The right:
The wealthy are betters who make the country better by generating wealth. You should be slaving 24/7 for little reward for the good of the country and proud to do so.

Not said out loud: Individual wealth is secondary to the wealth of the whole even if it's mainly held in the hands of the few.
 
You say you're a bit of a history buff on the USSR.

Historians aren't immune to the prevailing, dominant views of the ruling classes of the societies in which they live. They have their own biases and prejudices from the personal experiences of their lives, and which inform their decisions to research various particular aspects of history, what to focus on, what to disregard, what is deemed worthy and important for investigation, and peer-review isn't foolproof. Like all of us, they're trapped by the particularities of their lives. Their work can't be removed from their backgrounds.

Two of the more well-known in the last century were Richard Pipes and Moshe Lewin. Both had experience of genocidal Nazi violence, but their paths went in different directions. Pipes went westward to the US, Lewin earlier in life went east to the USSR, to escape the extermination that befell his family in occupied Poland/Lithuania. Pipes served in the US airforce, Lewin in the Red Army. Pipes' views on the Soviet Union were coloured by the threat posed by a predating Russian imperialism to Poland and informed his research into the origins of the Russian (Muscovite) state. Lewin's views were coloured by his experience within the USSR, and the system that literally saved him was also one he would eventually look at with a critical but hopeful eye.

Both looked at state politics, and both had useful insights to glean from their work. Pipes was also an elitist who had little interest in the lives of the masses and their significance to historical processes, he became a belligerent advisor in the US government and CIA, but underneath his anti-Communism was a distinctly Polish understanding of the Russian state and the centuries-old threat it posed. Because of that bias narrowing his interest, and while also acknowledging his political views, his contribution to understanding the formation and development of the Russian state the Communists later seized control of are worthwhile.

Lewin looked at the state-driven modernisation processes the USSR (and its relations with the broad masses) underwent during the Stalin era, which would inform his research into alternative paths that might've been taken or still could be taken, from old economic and political debates within and without the party before Stalin's policies of accelerated industrial development. Lewin was no fan of Stalinism but recognised its dynamism and also saw how unsustainable it was without the use of coercion. The Soviet Union was a flawed experiment that didn't have to become what it did.

When you say with arrogant self-regard, the USSR 'was like this,' who said it first? Why did they say it? What was it that informed their decision to investigate that thing in the first place, what had an important mediating influence on them?

STALIN BAD MAN.

shrugs
Thank you for this. An interesting post.
 
OK, some things are worth saying and then putting to one side and (largely) forgetting about. Absolute truth doesn't exist. Our languages are attempts at describing the world which can never be fully accurate. Right. Got that, but we can on a daily realistic level normally tell the difference between a truth and an untruth.

Everyone has limits to their understanding, their knowledge and their abilities to investigate. They also have inherent and acquired biases, affected by their life experiences, their politics, religion or ideology. Right. Got that, but we can all look out the window and see and agree on whether the sun is shining, and many other matters. Some people may choose not to look out the window, or look in the basement instead (or whatever), but if we do look out the window we can still make certain factual statements about the weather.

No great argument so far.

Some people may decide that certain courses of action are necessary, even if not very nice. This may be a question of short term perceived necessity, or ideological conviction. Either way it is possible to discern the fact from the fiction. Lenin or Stalin or Pol Pot or the sacred leadership family in North Korea may decide that it is in the best interests of socialism that the state behaves with total barbarity. But they pretend that all is sweetness and light. Any trouble is caused by Tsarists or spies or counter-revolutionaries. That is where sections of the Marxist Leninist left lose contact with the truth. You may well believe it is necessary to be a complete bastard, but when you pretend you aren't we call that lying.
 
Everyone has limits to their understanding, their knowledge and their abilities to investigate. They also have inherent and acquired biases, affected by their life experiences, their politics, religion or ideology. Right. Got that, but we can all look out the window and see and agree on whether the sun is shining, and many other matters. Some people may choose not to look out the window, or look in the basement instead (or whatever), but if we do look out the window we can still make certain factual statements about the weather.
No. You are making huge cultural assumptions about epistemology. What is the “sun”? Is this understood in the same way by all people at all times? What comprises “weather”? Is that a cultural absolute too? And are we experiencing the same thing at the same time, or is one person looking in London on Friday afternoon while another looks in Tashkent on Saturday?
 
OK, some things are worth saying and then putting to one side and (largely) forgetting about. Absolute truth doesn't exist. Our languages are attempts at describing the world which can never be fully accurate. Right. Got that, but we can on a daily realistic level normally tell the difference between a truth and an untruth.

Everyone has limits to their understanding, their knowledge and their abilities to investigate. They also have inherent and acquired biases, affected by their life experiences, their politics, religion or ideology. Right. Got that, but we can all look out the window and see and agree on whether the sun is shining, and many other matters. Some people may choose not to look out the window, or look in the basement instead (or whatever), but if we do look out the window we can still make certain factual statements about the weather.

No great argument so far.

Some people may decide that certain courses of action are necessary, even if not very nice. This may be a question of short term perceived necessity, or ideological conviction. Either way it is possible to discern the fact from the fiction. Lenin or Stalin or Pol Pot or the sacred leadership family in North Korea may decide that it is in the best interests of socialism that the state behaves with total barbarity. But they pretend that all is sweetness and light. Any trouble is caused by Tsarists or spies or counter-revolutionaries. That is where sections of the Marxist Leninist left lose contact with the truth. You may well believe it is necessary to be a complete bastard, but when you pretend you aren't we call that lying.

Most people in Britain (and in other countries) who were sympathetic to the regime in the USSR thought that the claims of human rights violations were lies. The people making the claims about these countries were the same people making obviously untrue claims about the situation in this country, and in other countries.

If the same Daily Mail and the members of the ruling class who were lauding Mussolini and Hitler in the 1930s were claiming that the Stalin regime was murderously cruel and repressive, and you were a bricklayer or a coalminer, you were likely to believe that their claims about the USSR were untrue.

If you were someone in Britain in the 1970s who was horrified and disgusted by US atrocities in Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, you were unlikely to believe claims by the governments of the USA or the UK that the Pol Pot regime was engaged in mass murder.
 
Most people in Britain (and in other countries) who were sympathetic to the regime in the USSR thought that the claims of human rights violations were lies. The people making the claims about these countries were the same people making obviously untrue claims about the situation in this country, and in other countries.

If the same Daily Mail and the members of the ruling class who were lauding Mussolini and Hitler in the 1930s were claiming that the Stalin regime was murderously cruel and repressive, and you were a bricklayer or a coalminer, you were likely to believe that their claims about the USSR were untrue.

If you were someone in Britain in the 1970s who was horrified and disgusted by US atrocities in Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, you were unlikely to believe claims by the governments of the USA or the UK that the Pol Pot regime was engaged in mass murder.
Mostly true, though there were always those, anarchists included, who saw through the lies. But they were lies, told by the Communist leaderships. In later years too many Marxist Leninists still refused to look at the reality, at the dirty linen under the bed, so to speak. That dishonesty is partly why so many people do not trust the left. We all get tarred with the same brush.
 
No. You are making huge cultural assumptions about epistemology. What is the “sun”? Is this understood in the same way by all people at all times? What comprises “weather”? Is that a cultural absolute too? And are we experiencing the same thing at the same time, or is one person looking in London on Friday afternoon while another looks in Tashkent on Saturday?
Maybe it's best you don't say anything then, because nobody will understand you.
 
No. You are making huge cultural assumptions about epistemology. What is the “sun”? Is this understood in the same way by all people at all times? What comprises “weather”? Is that a cultural absolute too? And are we experiencing the same thing at the same time, or is one person looking in London on Friday afternoon while another looks in Tashkent on Saturday?

Half past six.
 
Mostly true, though there were always those, anarchists included, who saw through the lies. But they were lies, told by the Communist leaderships. In later years too many Marxist Leninists still refused to look at the reality, at the dirty linen under the bed, so to speak. That dishonesty is partly why so many people do not trust the left. We all get tarred with the same brush.
In later years too many Marxist Leninists still refused to look at the reality, Have you any examples?
 
I always regret it when I have to hurry a post and thus leave most of what I want to say unsaid.

My point isn’t that we — in this time and place — can’t communicate on whether the sun is shining. It’s simply that even such apparently obvious facts still depend on shared understandings of what it is we are talking about, what information we can leave out (does “weather” include the phase of the moon, for example?), the localisation of the thing we’re talking about (is the “weather” for this spot, this region, this country, this continent?) and a hundred other cultural norms. So if that’s true for something apparently easy to identify, how much harder is it to state facts about political positions and human acts that were undertaken with confused and messy intentions?
 
Even after Khrushchev's speech in 1956 denouncing Stalin there was no full disclosure of all that had happened before. Khrushchev concentrated on Stalin's crimes against Party members during the purges, but not all the wider crimes. Anything before the 1930's was just ignored. He criticised Stalin's deportations of some of the minorities during and after WW2, but failed to acknowledge the sheer scale of such activity, nor how long this and other racial and cultural persecution lasted, nor when it all started. The Russian Party never analysed its own history in any critical way. Krushchev's speech was never even printed in its entirety during his lifetime.

Other Marxists, let's call them all 'Trotskyists' for simplicity, were critical of everything since Stalin, of course, but not of anything Trotsky did. Victor Serge wrote, after the event, how they all had to pretend that the Kronstadt mutineers were paid by Tsarist gold, even though they knew it wasn't true. I had a conversation with some bloke from the Socialist Party a few years ago who was still maintaining the same bollocks.

I'm not saying you won't find any Marxists anywhere in the world who won't own up to it all, but the Marxist Leninist approach is so steeped in distortion, all with the best of intent, that they can rarely shrug it all off.
 
Even after Khrushchev's speech in 1956 denouncing Stalin there was no full disclosure of all that had happened before. Khrushchev concentrated on Stalin's crimes against Party members during the purges, but not all the wider crimes. Anything before the 1930's was just ignored. He criticised Stalin's deportations of some of the minorities during and after WW2, but failed to acknowledge the sheer scale of such activity, nor how long this and other racial and cultural persecution lasted, nor when it all started. The Russian Party never analysed its own history in any critical way. Krushchev's speech was never even printed in its entirety during his lifetime.

Other Marxists, let's call them all 'Trotskyists' for simplicity, were critical of everything since Stalin, of course, but not of anything Trotsky did. Victor Serge wrote, after the event, how they all had to pretend that the Kronstadt mutineers were paid by Tsarist gold, even though they knew it wasn't true. I had a conversation with some bloke from the Socialist Party a few years ago who was still maintaining the same bollocks.

I'm not saying you won't find any Marxists anywhere in the world who won't own up to it all, but the Marxist Leninist approach is so steeped in distortion, all with the best of intent, that they can rarely shrug it all off.
All this brings us back, however, to the way that 'libertarians,' for want of a better word, seem to find it impossible to answer how they imagine they would behave if faced with the same situation the Bolsheviks had to face, or even a less extreme but still inevitably brutal one (and I am somebody who hasn't identified with the Bolshevik tradition for decades-decades during which it has been replaced/eclipsed by precisely nothing even as that same tradition flounders.) I can't help thinking that 'libertarians,' in the extremely unlikely event that their revolution could survive, would end up behaving pretty much like the Bolsheviks and their successors did, and would create their own myths. And not because they wanted to.

You say somewhere above that the dishonesty of 'Marxist-Leninists' (as if they're still 'a thing') is one of the main reasons why 'the left' isn't trusted. Another reason is that its radical elements, Leninist or not, have little or nothing to say about where they purport to be trying to lead people, nor what they would do when they get there.
 
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