Should Tulse Hill in south London - named after a 17th century slave trader - change its name?

[editor]

This has - to say the least - received a mixed reaction on social media but it's an interesting question given that Sir Henry Tulse was a full-on slave trader supporting truly barbaric practices.

Earlier this year, Lambeth said:

....Lambeth council is launching an audit of all landmarks, statues and works of art in public spaces in the borough for their links to slavery, colonialism and the oppression of black and minority ethnic communities.

So I wonder if that covers place names (I suspect not but I thought it was worth raising the question)

Should Tulse Hill in south London be renamed seeing as it’s named after a 17th century slave trader?

With the rise of the Black Lives Matter movement, the toppling of colonial statues all around the world and the renaming of institutes named after slave owners, there’s been some discussion o…

www.brixtonbuzz.com

 

[gosub]

There are currently an estimated 40 million people in slavery. How's about that shit gets dealt with ahead of some multi million pound virtue signalling rebrand.

 

[ska invita]

So many London areas had different names over the years, especially pre train stations.

I wonder what an older name for the area is. Is the area of Tulse Hill clearly defined, or is it just around the station basically?

I don't have a problem with a name change

 

[editor]

There are currently an estimated 40 million people in slavery. How's about that shit gets dealt with ahead of some multi million pound virtue signalling rebrand.

I didn't realise they were mutually exclusive actions.

 

[Petcha]

I think we should change the name of London to something else. Apparently the Romans were complicit in some pretty bad shit.

 

[Epona]

I think we should change the name of London to something else. Apparently the Romans were complicit in some pretty bad shit.

Good job the origin of the name pre-dates that then

 

[Petcha]

Good job the origin of the name pre-dates that then

Really? I thought the Romans called it Londonium?

 

[Epona]

Really? I thought the Romans called it Londonium?

Yeah they did, but that was almost certainly a Latinisation of an existing name for the settlement. There are various theories, but I don't think anyone thinks the name of the place originated from the Latin name for it - but that it was based on earlier names.

 

[Nivag]

This song will have to be renamed

 

[Petcha]

Yeah they did, but that was almost certainly a Latinisation of an existing name for the settlement. There are various theories, but I don't think anyone thinks the name of the place originated from the Latin name for it - but that it was based on earlier names.

This is a massive derail, but go on then... Where did the name of this great city originally come from (genuine question)

In answer to the actual question here, I'm very reluctant to 'cleanse' history like this. I know Zimbabwe cleansed Rhodes from their history, but then you now have many streets, locations and the airport named after Mugabe himself. So out of the fire etc...

 

[ska invita]

sounds like the name goes back to the 1600s when the Tulses were the main landowner in an area that doesnt sound like a lot of other people were living there (" In 1810 Tulse Hill Farm was the only building in the western part of the area. ")

Tulse Hill - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[krtek a houby]

Name change? Sure, why not?

In Ireland, streets and towns were renamed, so Sackville Street became O'Connell Street and Kingstown reverted to Dun Laoghaire. And a certain statue was removed from O'Connell Street without too many tears shed.

 

[Epona]

This is a massive derail, but go on then... Where did the name of this great city originally come from (genuine question)

In answer to the actual question here, I'm very reluctant to 'cleanse' history like this. I know Zimbabwe cleansed Rhodes from their history, but then you now have many streets, locations and the airport named after Mugabe himself. So out of the fire etc...

As I say, there are various theories which at the least level of academic detail the wikipedia page is not a bad place to start - but the Romans did not found the settlement, it already existed before they got here. One thing they were very good at was synchretism, meaning that they meshed pre-existing local names and religious traditions into their own belief system, they didn't obliterate all before them (hence adoption of local deities as seen with Sulis Minerva etc.)

One thing you are very correct about is that it is a massive derail - very little in history can compare with the almost industrialised capture and selling of humans as slave labour based almost entirely on a notion that people of a certain race/races were subhuman as it happened over the last couple of centuries, and harking back to earlier historical times and saying "they did it too" is misunderstanding the racial and racist base and bias of the slave trade that these moves to rename places and remove statues are concerned with. The Romans are a complete irrelevance to this discussion, and a diversion.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I didn't realise they were mutually exclusive actions.

I think it’s more about ‘the language of priorities’ than either/or

 

[weltweit]

I am fine with changing names.

 

[agricola]

sounds like the name goes back to the 1600s when the Tulses were the main landowner in an area that doesnt sound like a lot of other people were living there (" In 1810 Tulse Hill Farm was the only building in the western part of the area. ")

Tulse Hill - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Scarlettes would be good.

 

[editor]

Yeah they did, but that was almost certainly a Latinisation of an existing name for the settlement. There are various theories, but I don't think anyone thinks the name of the place originated from the Latin name for it - but that it was based on earlier names.

Wikipedia says: As of 2017, the trend in scholarly publications supports derivation from a Brittonic form *Londonjon, which would itself have been of Celtic origin

London Jon sounds like a geezer you'd meet in the pub for a bit of coke.

 

[ska invita]

Brittonic

So to be pronounced in a comedic French accent

 

[editor]

Suffice to say, the Memories of Brixton and Stockwell FB group are positively apoplectic with rage about this article and Godwin's law was swiftly evoked.

Example quote:

Oh shut the fuck up you fucking idiots. Change this change that, why don’t you change your address and fuck off. A fucking joke.

why do we have to change every thing because of the blm? its our history leave it alone

FOR FUCKS SAKE. NO. NO. NO! THIS COUNTRY IS DOING MY HEAD IN! GET YOUR PRIORITIES RIGHT FFS!

 

[krtek a houby]

Suffice to say, the Memories of Brixton and Stockwell FB group are positively apoplectic with rage about this article and Godwin's law was swiftly invoked.

Grumbling on the internet is to be expected, it's when they turn up all armed militia to save history, that's the worry.

Not likely to happen in south London, mind.

 

[gaijingirl]

Suffice to say, the Memories of Brixton and Stockwell FB group are positively apoplectic with rage about this article and Godwin's law was swiftly evoked.

Example quote:

I do enjoy your posts on that group.

 

[Pickman's model]

Let's scout the street names of the proposed former tulse hill for objectionable connections too

 

[Raheem]

Mayfair is named after a porn mag. Think it should be changed to Family Circle. Or, as a compromise, Health and Efficiency.

 

[ViolentPanda]

This has - to say the least - received a mixed reaction on social media but it's an interesting question given that Sir Henry Tulse was a full-on slave trader supporting truly barbaric practices.

Earlier this year, Lambeth said:



So I wonder if that covers place names (I suspect not but I thought it was worth raising the question)

Should Tulse Hill in south London be renamed seeing as it’s named after a 17th century slave trader?

With the rise of the Black Lives Matter movement, the toppling of colonial statues all around the world and the renaming of institutes named after slave owners, there’s been some discussion o…

www.brixtonbuzz.com

Your trusty reporter called him a "lord major of London". Hmm...

Vassall & Thurlow Park wards are also named after slavers, & Herne Hill ward is named after some weird bastard who wears a stag's horns on his head.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So many London areas had different names over the years, especially pre train stations.

I wonder what an older name for the area is. Is the area of Tulse Hill clearly defined, or is it just around the station basically?

I don't have a problem with a name change

The original area just consisted on the manor's grounds, so maybe 15-20% of the modern Tulse Hill ward.

 

[T & P]

I don’t mean to trivialise such a serious subject, but on a light note one improvement for me arising from a name change would be telling black cab drivers where I want to go when I’m pissed. I never lost that much of my accent despite living here for two decades, and I apparently I am incapable of pronouncing the word Tulse when even moderately drunk, as no cabbie ever understands me.

 

[editor]

Your trusty reporter called him a "lord major of London". Hmm...

Vassall & Thurlow Park wards are also named after slavers, & Herne Hill ward is named after some weird bastard who wears a stag's horns on his head.

Typo fixed!

 

[editor]

Let's scout the street names of the proposed former tulse hill for objectionable connections too

I think the process starts with educating people about who their area/street is named after, and if - over time - the majority feel uncomfortable with that, why shouldn't they rename their neighbourhood?

Tulse Hill is a multi racial community and I'd certainly support any majority decision to rid themselves of any connections with slavery.

Or you can just brush it under the carpet with flippant comments like yours.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think the process starts with educating people about who their area/street is named after, and if - over time - the majority feel uncomfortable with that, why shouldn't they rename their neighbourhood?

Tulse Hill is a multi racial community and I'd certainly support any majority decision to rid themselves of any connections with slavery.

Or you can just brush it under the carpet with flippant comments like yours.

When you repeat what I have said and present it in opposition to me i can only conclude your purpose is personal. I think you hedge your comments round with limitations - their neighbourhood, majority, slavery. Who is they? Residents? Landlords? How long do you suggest someone lives somewhere before they gain the right to express an opinion? And would you support non-slavery changes eg magdala avenue in archway named after a battle in Ethiopia? I am clear that change must start with understanding which names come from problematic origins, not just slavery but imperialism and so on and taking things from there.

 

[agricola]

When you repeat what I have said and present it in opposition to me i can only conclude your purpose is personal. I think you hedge your comments round with limitations - their neighbourhood, majority, slavery. Who is they? Residents? Landlords? How long do you suggest someone lives somewhere before they gain the right to express an opinion? And would you support non-slavery changes eg magdala avenue in archway named after a battle in Ethiopia? I am clear that change must start with understanding which names come from problematic origins, not just slavery but imperialism and so on and taking things from there.

TBF by the standards of the day Magdala was one of the least problematic invasions of the period. Also it would be good to expand this to include grammatically incorrect streetnames, of which Thermopylae Gate is the one that annoys me the most.