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Should the fox hunting ban be lifted?

Should the fox hunting ban be lifted?

  • Total voters
    209
Indeed. Smack the other eye next.

Thing is, you always argue on these threads against that idiot in your cartoon. You never actually argue against what is actually said to you.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
No. I'd divvy up the turnips.

I see how this is a sticking point, but a couple of things are encapsulated in those cartoons that come through both ddraig and Jeff R's posts.

They think meat eaters are cunts, idiots who haven't thought things through, or weak ('but bacon'). In all three options - cunt, idiot, weak - they're setting themselves up as superior. And that shines right through the cartoons - meat-eater is both stupid and weak in that instance.

So, Jeff, you posted up the cartoon. To you, someone like me is a cunt, stupid or weak, or some combination of the three. That kind of contempt for other people would, rightly, be jumped on in most other political circumstances. It's a dead end. It will never achieve anything.

And even you admit that your absolutes don't work - that to feed people, in whatever way, is going to involve killing other animals.
Click to expand...

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you were on the sauce when you wrote this crap. So much dishonesty in a few sentences. Firstly, me and ddraig cease to become separate posters with different opinions but some sort of group agent ('they think...'), secondly, you conflate the two cartoons we post as having ultimately the same message (and then you assume that the motives we had for posting both of them is the same); and then thirdly, comes your great mind reading trick 'They think meat eaters are cunts, idiots...'.

Well thanks for that Uri Geller, there was me thinking that I just want animals to suffer less violence at the hands of humans, but thanks for getting inside my brain and inferring - from me posting a single fucking satirical cartoon - that actually I'm driven by a sense of superiority and a hatred of all meat eaters. Maybe I do think all meat-eaters are stupid, weak cunts. Maybe I think that all of my family, all of my ex-girlfriends, most of my friends, my work colleagues, and a great many of my political, cultural, musical etc. heroes are all weak, stupid cunts. Maybe I think I was a stupid, weak cunt myself for most of my life. Does that sound likely to you?

Far from treating people 'with contempt' I treat them with the upmost respect. I treat them as rational beings capable of logic and reason and so I ask them to provide justifications for their actions. Frankly I do find the sort of things that people say about why they eat meat to often be ridiculous but that doesn't mean I think they are 'weak, stupid cunts', I just that they are wrong on a particular issue. To treat people with respect is to be honest with them when you think they are doing something wrong, I'd be being disrespectful by sugarcoating and hiding how I feel about the consumption of animal products as well as dishonest with myself. It's actually you who's being contemptuous here by continually and maliciously misrepresenting my views, like the last thread where you drunkenly abused me (and then apologised by PM - didn't even have the guts to do it in public) and earlier in this thread when you said I compared meat-eaters to rapists and murderers (and you knew full well that was not what I was doing).

As for the cartoons, maybe you don't understand the point of them. They are satirising the types of things that people say to vegans online, they are not meant to be fully rounded portraits or to explore the subtle nuances of debate. I follow vegan sidekick on Facebook, and I can tell you that not all meat consumers have the visceral reaction to his comics that you do. Indeed, every now and then, meat eaters actually thank him for his cartoons and some even become vegan in response to them:

cartoons.jpg

Oh, and one last bullshit nugget: 'And even you admit that your absolutes don't work - that to feed people, in whatever way, is going to involve killing other animals.' Firstly, I don't advocate 'absolutism', secondly, I didn't say that position doesn't 'work', and thirdly, I love the use of the word 'admit' there, as if I'd been backed into some sort of corner and confessed. I've never denied plant agriculture causes animal deaths. And you know this, because I'd already dealt with the question in response to you on another thread. And surprise, surprise, you didn't respond to that, instead you keep trotting out (as you have on this thread) the whole 'what about animals killed in plant agriculture' line as if that's not something that's already been addressed.

But you know what littlebabyjesus I'm not interested in having some sort of dick measuring contest with you, I just want to discuss issues relating to animal ethics, and if you can't do that without resorting to abuse and misrepresentation, then frankly, maybe it would be better if you didn't bother at all.
 
blam! 1000 times better than i could ever put it, thanks :)

and ftr i'm not a vegan and some of those cartoons make me feel uncomfortable
they are brilliant
 
Jeff Robinson said:
Ethical vegans do not argue that the abolition of animal agriculture would bring about the end of all animal suffering inflicted by human beings, they just think it would be a very important step in the right direction.
Click to expand...

What I want to know is why stop at not eating meat? For example, you can live without drinks other than water, think of the environmental impact of soft drinks, tea and coffee cultivation etc and how such impacts can hurt and kill animals. Drinking only water is something that can be done right now, so would it not be a step in the right direction as well?
 
NoXion said:
What I want to know is why stop at not eating meat? For example, you can live without drinks other than water, think of the environmental impact of soft drinks, tea and coffee cultivation etc and how such impacts can hurt and kill animals. Drinking only water is something that can be done right now, so would it not be a step in the right direction as well?
Click to expand...

Why bother giving £10 to charity when you could give £11? Why bother giving £11 when you could give £12 etc. Why give your £10 to charity x when you could have given it to charity y? All ethical decisions involve some form of line drawing, and all line drawing involves a certain level arbitrariness. But it’s still better to give £10 to the charity instead of £0, even if you could give more.

Ethical veganism (which for me extends beyond diet to also clothing, cosmetics etc. too) is where I draw my line. Does that involve a degree of arbitrariness? Undoubtedly. But, fwiw here are some of the reasons why I choose it as the baseline: (1) the most suffering that humans cause to other animals is through animal agriculture; (2) I think that there is a relevant ethical distinction between the intentional infliction of harm on the one hand and the unintended causing of harm as a foreseeable side-effect on the other; and (3) I see it as important to the integrity of an effective animal advocate – it’s hard to advocate for better treatment of animals when you are consuming products that harm them that you avoid at no great cost to yourself.

But I also appreciate that veganism seems daunting to many meat-eaters, I know it was to me when I was one. I think vegetarianism is a good compromise, it’s a diet that I believe most people in this country could fairly easily take up if they wished, and if large numbers of people took it up it would dramatically reduce the demand for animal products.
 
Jeff Robinson said:
Far from treating people 'with contempt' I treat them with the upmost respect. I treat them as rational beings capable of logic and reason and so I ask them to provide justifications for their actions.
Click to expand...

But why should anyone need to justify their dietary preferences to you or anyone else?

That's the arrogant part of all this.
 
panpete said:
I just came across this :facepalm:
http://askauntannie.com/2015/07/15/8-things-people-who-support-fox-hunting-are-tired-of-hearing/
Click to expand...
From #8: (bolding mine)

I have never seen a kill, but the presence of taxidermied foxes caught pre-ban would suggest that they are not ripped apart. At the mouths of hounds foxes have a very swift death (think of how much bigger a hound is than a fox, and then think of the number of hounds in a pack), much faster indeed, than that they could potentially see through shooting (unless it was a beautiful shot) or as a result of natural causes (mange, starvation, distemper etc).

The two sides are never going to agree, and I strongly believe that everyone is entitled to an opinion. However, that opinion needs to be informed, and the vitriol of some people- people who have never seen a hunt, never seen a lamb killed by a fox and probably never seen a live fox- is really too much.
Click to expand...
Seriously?

That's just the most obvious of the nonsense. The whole post is full of similar facepalm moments -- logical fallacies, contradictions, straw men and so forth.
 
Last month master of the hunt Mark Hankinson was convicted for encouraging illegal foxhunting. He was doing what Hunt Sabs have pointed out for years - using 'trial hunting' as smokescreen for the continued hunting of foxes with hounds. In a major blow for the hunt scum, this weekend National Trust members voted to prohibit trial hunting on their grounds. Pol Port of the cuntryside alliance is not happy:

 
Jeff Robinson said:
Last month master of the hunt Mark Hankinson was convicted for encouraging illegal foxhunting. He was doing what Hunt Sabs have pointed out for years - using 'trial hunting' as smokescreen for the continued hunting of foxes with hounds. In a major blow for the hunt scum, this weekend National Trust members voted to prohibit trial hunting on their grounds. Pol Port of the cuntryside alliance is not happy:
Click to expand...

Trail, not "trial".
 
That isn't loading for me, but I've seen (what I guess the vid is) on FB and Twitter.

"Country people love their animals".

scum.
 
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