Should the EU/NATO use direct military action to help defend Ukraine?

[dilute micro]

He probably wouldn't, and as kebabking says who would believe him even if he did, but the collective West needs to keep (start, in many cases) talking to him seriously. The quality of the Western diplomatic response, which has been incredibly gimmicky, is terrible so far.

Yeah, I think it would be good. I don't know if there's anything to change his mind. There might be a way to talk about losing this war and what will lift sanctions. Could he be convinced that we don't want to see Russia destroyed? That might be daydreaming, idk. He could be too far gone.

This is the craziest, damndest shit. Every morning I have to remind myself that this is real. If 40 years ago someone described what's happening - denazification, Wagner group, neo-nazis, Mozart group, fascist symbols, paying Russia billions, polite little green men, mass killings, mass graves, a former comedian president who stays and fights, a heavyweight boxing champ mayor, iron curtain, threats of nuclear war........., I would have thought this was the imagination of a bad fiction writer. But no, this is real.

 

[RD2003]

This is the craziest, damndest shit. Every morning I have to remind myself that this is real. If 40 years ago someone described what's happening - denazification, Wagner group, neo-nazis, Mozart group, fascist symbols, paying Russia billions, polite little green men, mass killings, mass graves, a former comedian president who stays and fights, a heavyweight boxing champ mayor, iron curtain, threats of nuclear war........., I would have thought this was the imagination of a bad fiction writer. But no, this is real.

Not sure why you're surprised. We have merely entered the ghastly future that various science fiction writers described for us.

'Support' Ukraine, don't 'support' Ukraine. Be one of the semi-imaginary Red-Browns for what it's worth. Imagine that tyrants can be somehow vanquished for evermore....

Even if we get through this shit unscathed, it is still unlikley to end well.

 

[Humberto]

Every generation wants progress.

Every genearation gets told it can wait.

 

[Dogsauce]

Every generation wants progress.

Every genearation gets told it can wait.

And for many nations around the globe their collective memories contain a dark section of history titled ‘when the soldiers came’ and it fucking stinks that it is still happening.

 

[tim]

NATO didn't intervene directly when Putin was killing Syrians and Russia didn't intervene when the "Coalition" were slaughtering Iraqis and Afghans. Nothing will be done this time, even though the victims are white and nominally Christian. It won't happen this time.

It shouldn't happen either as NATO involvement, even if it didn't escalate the conflict, would lengthen the conflict and leave more people maimed and injured. We already know the result. The Russian attack on central and Eastern Ukraine has failed. They will, however, retain control of the territories they hold directly or by proxy. They will probably also gain territory in the East.

The real need is for those outside to be pressuring for peace talks.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Peace talks with Putin will be meaningless, though. Everyone knows that. He will lie when it suits him and play politics and all the rest. Unless Ukraine surrenders unconditionally, which they obviously won't, there is no way a permanent, or even semi-permanent, peace can be achieved. The more atrocities come to light and are committed the less likely Ukraine will want to make concessions. I don't think those outside will have a lot of influence over either side in the short term.

 

[cupid_stunt]

The real need is for those outside to be pressuring for peace talks.

Peace talks started weeks and are ongoing.

 

[tim]

Peace talks are all about playing politics: finding a face-saving solution that gets everyone out of a hole. All politicians be they Russian, British or Ukrainian lie. If they didn't they wouldn't have got to where they are. However, when they know they can't achieve the their objectives they compromise.

As to Putin, firstly there's more to Russian politics than Putin, and he knows that, and he's a ruthless brute but a calculating one, so will comprise. The same us true for Zeklenski and those around him in the Ukrainian Government. They can't be as gung-ho, and indifferent to the death and destruction that surrounds them as Kevbad the Bad.

When I say peace talks, I mean substantive high-level ones.

 

[dilute micro]

NATO didn't intervene directly when Putin was killing Syrians and Russia didn't intervene when the "Coalition" were slaughtering Iraqis and Afghans. Nothing will be done this time, even though the victims are white and nominally Christian. It won't happen this time.

It shouldn't happen either as NATO involvement, even if it didn't escalate the conflict, would lengthen the conflict and leave more people maimed and injured. We already know the result. The Russian attack on central and Eastern Ukraine has failed. They will, however, retain control of the territories they hold directly or by proxy. They will probably also gain territory in the East.

The real need is for those outside to be pressuring for peace talks.

I'm not for direct NATO involvement but it would not lengthen the conflict, it would shorten it dramatically. At this point, asking for peace talks would be to return to 2014 when the US and Europe comfortably looked the other way for peace. And that's not how peace is achieved. There are some things that can't be avoided and this is not a bespoke war. This is more akin to an abscessed tooth. We have to accept that if we screw this up another time there will almost certainly be more of this in the future. We can't keep making the same mistakes at the expense of the Ukrainians which we've done since the early 90s.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Peace talks are all about playing politics: finding a face-saving solution that gets everyone out of a hole. All politicians be they Russian, British or Ukrainian lie. If they didn't they wouldn't have got to where they are. However, when they know they can't achieve the their objectives they compromise.

As to Putin, firstly there's more to Russian politics than Putin, and he knows that, and he's a ruthless brute but a calculating one, so will comprise. The same us true for Zeklenski and those around him in the Ukrainian Government. They can't be as gung-ho, and indifferent to the death and destruction that surrounds them as Kevbad the Bad.

When I say peace talks, I mean substantive high-level ones.

Yeah I forgot to mention how indifferent to death and destruction I am. Also completely gung-ho. Thanks for reminding me, and everyone else on Urban, just what a callous brute I am.

 

[RD2003]

I'm not for direct NATO involvement but it would not lengthen the conflict, it would shorten it dramatically. At this point, asking for peace talks would be to return to 2014 when the US and Europe comfortably looked the other way for peace. And that's not how peace is achieved. There are some things that can't be avoided and this is not a bespoke war. This is more akin to an abscessed tooth. We have to accept that if we screw this up another time there will almost certainly be more of this in the future. We can't keep making the same mistakes at the expense of the Ukrainians which we've done since the early 90s.

Again this 'we.'

I don't remember 'us' being consulted about any of this. Or anything else, for that matter.

 

[cupid_stunt]

When I say peace talks, I mean substantive high-level ones.

But, Putin isn't interested in that ATM, Zelenskyy has been asking for direct talks with him for weeks, but the silence from the kremlin has been deafening, despite pressure from other countries such as Turkey, Israel, and even China.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Again this 'we.'

I don't remember 'us' being consulted about any of this. Or anything else, for that matter.

You know 'we' in this context is 'the west', stop being silly.

 

[RD2003]

You know 'we' in this context is 'the west', stop being silly.

'The West' is not 'us.' We, the mugs on the street, don't count. We have no say. Most of us don't even have an independent or halfway coherent opinion.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm not for direct NATO involvement but it would not lengthen the conflict, it would shorten it dramatically. At this point, asking for peace talks would be to return to 2014 when the US and Europe comfortably looked the other way for peace. And that's not how peace is achieved. There are some things that can't be avoided and this is not a bespoke war. This is more akin to an abscessed tooth. We have to accept that if we screw this up another time there will almost certainly be more of this in the future. We can't keep making the same mistakes at the expense of the Ukrainians which we've done since the early 90s.

I think you'll find peace talks are less about peace than politics, in the same way courts are about law and not justice. What passes for peace now isn't actual peace and tranquility but a situation where there's an acceptable level of violence or conflict. Be it in the six counties or the Balkans the causes of conflict haven't been addressed, really, but sticking plasters have been put over the wounds. I don't see any ukraine peace settlement at the moment preventing or tending a resumption of the conflict in the future. All the politicians have had a nasty scare but none of them still want to risk a third world war by intervening in Ukraine and sending troops. They'll want to be out of Ukraine as soon as possible and that means an inadequate peace which doesn't satisfy anyone and leaves the Russian annexed land and 'independent' republics as a latter-day Alsace-Lorraine, a target for irredentists of whichever country doesn't have them at the end of this debacle.

 

[Pickman's model]

. Most of us don't even have an independent or halfway coherent opinion.

Yeh but we don't hold that against you

 

[Pickman's model]

You know 'we' in this context is 'the west', stop being silly.

There's nothing wrong with a spot of silliness to break up the unremitting horror

 

[dilute micro]

'The West' is not 'us.' We, the mugs on the street, don't count. We have no say. Most of us don't even have an independent or halfway coherent opinion.

But you're not a "mug on the street". You're the PM. And you've got better things to to than to be on a messageboard.

 

[Pickman's model]

But you're not a "mug on the street". You're the PM. And you've got better things to to than to be on a messageboard.

He's a mug in a front room somewhere, and his pose of miserabilism is as unrealistic as the prime minister's affected jollity

 

[RD2003]

Yeh but we don't hold that against you

Nor me any of you poor saps,

 

[RD2003]

He's a mug in a front room somewhere, and his pose of miserabilism is as unrealistic as the prime minister's affected jollity

I'm not claiming anything else really.

 

[RD2003]

There's nothing wrong with a spot of silliness to break up the unremitting horror

Unremitting horror, yes. If it was happening in Africa it would only occasionally get on the telly. And nobody would give a toss.

 

[Pickman's model]

Unremitting horror, yes. If it was happening in Africa it would only occasionally get on the telly. And nobody would give a toss.

I think we'd hear quite a lot about a russian war in Africa where the west was sending weapons. Wars between Africans receive much less coverage

 

[The39thStep]

I think you'll find peace talks are less about peace than politics, in the same way courts are about law and not justice. What passes for peace now isn't actual peace and tranquility but a situation where there's an acceptable level of violence or conflict. Be it in the six counties or the Balkans the causes of conflict haven't been addressed, really, but sticking plasters have been put over the wounds. I don't see any ukraine peace settlement at the moment preventing or tending a resumption of the conflict in the future. All the politicians have had a nasty scare but none of them still want to risk a third world war by intervening in Ukraine and sending troops. They'll want to be out of Ukraine as soon as possible and that means an inadequate peace which doesn't satisfy anyone and leaves the Russian annexed land and 'independent' republics as a latter-day Alsace-Lorraine, a target for irredentists of whichever country doesn't have them at the end of this debacle.

All very well but what about the abscessed tooth?

 

[Pickman's model]

All very well but what about the abscessed tooth?

The dentist will see you at tooth hurty

 

[dilute micro]

I think you'll find peace talks are less about peace than politics, in the same way courts are about law and not justice. What passes for peace now isn't actual peace and tranquility but a situation where there's an acceptable level of violence or conflict. Be it in the six counties or the Balkans the causes of conflict haven't been addressed, really, but sticking plasters have been put over the wounds. I don't see any ukraine peace settlement at the moment preventing or tending a resumption of the conflict in the future. All the politicians have had a nasty scare but none of them still want to risk a third world war by intervening in Ukraine and sending troops. They'll want to be out of Ukraine as soon as possible and that means an inadequate peace which doesn't satisfy anyone and leaves the Russian annexed land and 'independent' republics as a latter-day Alsace-Lorraine, a target for irredentists of whichever country doesn't have them at the end of this debacle.

Yes, that's what I'm describing - that illusion of peace or what's better for Ukraine according to outsiders. At the beginning of this war it was acceptable to have Russians roll tanks into Ukraine. Zelensky seems to understand that they can't do that over again. I worry that NATO will make the decision for Zelensky on what's good for Ukraine.

 

[Dr. Furface]

 

[RD2003]

Yes, that's what I'm describing - that illusion of peace or what's better for Ukraine according to outsiders. At the beginning of this war it was acceptable to have Russians roll tanks into Ukraine. Zelensky seems to understand that they can't do that over again. I worry that NATO will make the decision for Zelensky on what's good for Ukraine.

Don't worry. He doesn't worry about you.

 

[dilute micro]

Don't worry. He doesn't worry about you.

Who is this "he" you're talking about?

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes, that's what I'm describing - that illusion of peace or what's better for Ukraine according to outsiders. At the beginning of this war it was acceptable to have Russians roll tanks into Ukraine. Zelensky seems to understand that they can't do that over again. I worry that NATO will make the decision for Zelensky on what's good for Ukraine.

If you get NATO involvement they come and go on NATO terms, obviously