Finland & Sweden, and NATO membership.

[Bingoman]

Deleted wrong thread

 

[not-bono-ever]

As people have touched on above, Finland has been an associate chum of NATO for a long time - that in itself has significance- a formal upgrade to full membership whatevevs - apart from the formality of having NATO stuff in Finland itself following a possible membership , Finland has shown its cards already. The times of the old quoted Finlandisation cold war approach have been dead for a while.we kinda default to cold war stuff when thinking of the region but its outdated

 

[gosub]

Finland tells Turkey NATO membership cannot be traded

www.euractiv.com

If Turkey comes up with a b nch of names of PKK living in Finland that's that. Actually have a lot of sympathy for the Kurds But Turkey IS a NATO member and one under pressure itself both internal economic and two wars on its doorstep... If it can't be heard, doesn't say much for membership

 

[frogwoman]

Finland tells Turkey NATO membership cannot be traded

www.euractiv.com

If Turkey comes up with a b nch of names of PKK living in Finland that's that. Actually have a lot of sympathy for the Kurds But Turkey IS a NATO member and one under pressure itself both internal economic and two wars on its doorstep... If it can't be heard, doesn't say much for membership

I guess that might be one of the conditions of membership rather than an outright refusal?

 

[gosub]

I guess that might be one of the conditions of membership rather than an outright refusal?

Biden and State dept really do have to up their game. But pretty sure PKK ain't the n Finland iirc Finland as one of the EU states pushing for refugees to be a problem to be contained to the first member state they entered

 

[frogwoman]

Biden and State dept really do have to up their game

Turkey havent outright said they'll refuse tbf have they. I guess if Finland were to extradite these people to Turkey (or a neutral country) then there'd be fewer objections?

 

[gosub]

Turkey havent outright said they'll refuse tbf have they. I guess if Finland were to extradite these people to Turkey (or a neutral country) then there'd be fewer objections?

As said in edit not sure there are any there (which fits with Finnish statement). And yep would be uncomfortable with PKK ending up in Edrogens hands. But ignoring a NATO member that IS careing for millions dispossessed so NATO can further entwine itself to an EU member that has shunned doing so seems a bit rum to me

 

[frogwoman]

Is anyone actually ignoring them though? It needs to be unanimous agreement. They can't just override Turkey.

 

[gosub]

Is anyone actually ignoring them though? It needs to be unanimous agreement. They can't just override Turkey.

They were bit ching All last week most White House heard was 'Turkey clarifying position" seems pretty clear now and how much attention did US state deptartment put Turkeys way in the meantime? Not much

 

[Magnus McGinty]

If the purpose of NATO is to protect Western Liberal Democracies one might wonder what Erdogan is doing in it.

 

[gosub]

If the purpose of NATO is to protect Western Liberal Democracies one might wonder what Erdogan is doing in it.

Turkey was as much of a secular democracy as the US was when it joined. Granted times and places change... US is about to undo Roe vs Wade

 

[Supine]

If the purpose of NATO is to protect Western Liberal Democracies one might wonder what Erdogan is doing in it.

Turkey is the defence against the Muslim world

 

[gosub]

Turkey is the defence against the Muslim world

True of Ataturk's Turkey Edrogen's not so much
L. The influx of more refigious Muslims to Turkey is weakening the more secular elements within Turkey and cementing Edrogen

 

[not-bono-ever]

Turkey is to NATO as Greece is to the EU

 

[gosub]

Turkey is to NATO as Greece is to the EU

True Turkey is NATOs second largest member and Greece seems to ended up owning rather a lot of the EU's ranks - just what a country made up of a lot of islands needs tanks for is anybodies guess)

 

[turing test]

Turkey is a good place to launch missiles.

 

[gosub]

Also clear Turkey was doing more to help Ukraine out with military kit than EU was while Germany roadblocked it

 

[DownwardDog]

If the purpose of NATO is to protect Western Liberal Democracies one might wonder what Erdogan is doing in it.

Providing 400,000 troops.

 

[gosub]

Brussels Playbook: EU talks more arms — NATO enlargement’s big day — Global tax deal (finally) nears?

POLITICO’s must-read briefing on what's driving the day in Brussels, by Suzanne Lynch and Jakob Hanke Vela.

www.google.com

I do hope Stubb winds his neck in a bit. I mean UK is prepared to help defend Finland even with Brexit and everything but T-FX is a thing too

 

[RD2003]

Finland and Sweden may join Nato – but even they can’t guarantee that will make them safer | Thomas Meaney

The Finns have long relied on realpolitik and the Swedes on neutrality. Joining the historic military alliance could change everything, says Thomas Meaney of the Max Planck Society in Göttingen

www.theguardian.com

'With Finland now on the verge of joining Nato, the memory of Finlandization risks being retrofitted into its history as a kind of stumbling detour before the country’s foreordained entry into the west. But this would be a pity for the future shape of Europe. It is not that other countries can pursue a policy of Finlandization; suggestions for the “Finlandization” of Ukraine or Georgia do not quite make sense, since neither are in the position to reap the same advantages. But when Finland’s type of aloof posture becomes unsustainable, when there are no longer any zones of ambiguity in Europe, when the continent becomes a more Manichean space, awash with symbolic politics where more extreme measures are required to prove bona fides, then peace is ever more imperilled.

Few Finnish elites seem to think they will be manifestly safer in Nato, and no one is fooled about the sacredness of Nato’s article 5. “Nato’s defence of its members is an open-ended negotiation process,” Koskenniemi freely admits. He sees Finland’s entry into Nato operating at the level of appearances. “It’s not that we were very insecure yesterday, and will be very secure in Nato tomorrow,” he says. “It’s that this is a negotiation with a country that can no longer negotiate, and so Nato membership helps clarify our position to them.” But Koskenniemi is fully aware that with Nato membership, another striking feature Finland once exhibited to the world will recede. The very possibility of a state going its own way in Europe now seems slightly more distant.'

 

[Cid]

Finland and Sweden may join Nato – but even they can’t guarantee that will make them safer | Thomas Meaney

The Finns have long relied on realpolitik and the Swedes on neutrality. Joining the historic military alliance could change everything, says Thomas Meaney of the Max Planck Society in Göttingen

www.theguardian.com

'With Finland now on the verge of joining Nato, the memory of Finlandization risks being retrofitted into its history as a kind of stumbling detour before the country’s foreordained entry into the west. But this would be a pity for the future shape of Europe. It is not that other countries can pursue a policy of Finlandization; suggestions for the “Finlandization” of Ukraine or Georgia do not quite make sense, since neither are in the position to reap the same advantages. But when Finland’s type of aloof posture becomes unsustainable, when there are no longer any zones of ambiguity in Europe, when the continent becomes a more Manichean space, awash with symbolic politics where more extreme measures are required to prove bona fides, then peace is ever more imperilled.

Few Finnish elites seem to think they will be manifestly safer in Nato, and no one is fooled about the sacredness of Nato’s article 5. “Nato’s defence of its members is an open-ended negotiation process,” Koskenniemi freely admits. He sees Finland’s entry into Nato operating at the level of appearances. “It’s not that we were very insecure yesterday, and will be very secure in Nato tomorrow,” he says. “It’s that this is a negotiation with a country that can no longer negotiate, and so Nato membership helps clarify our position to them.” But Koskenniemi is fully aware that with Nato membership, another striking feature Finland once exhibited to the world will recede. The very possibility of a state going its own way in Europe now seems slightly more distant.'

That's nice, do you have an opinion on any of that?

 

[RD2003]

That's nice, do you have an opinion on any of that?

No

 

[cupid_stunt]

That's nice,

 

[gosub]

NATO talks with Finland, Sweden falter but will continue - LaPresse US

NATO envoys failed to reach a consensus Wednesday on whether to start membership talks with Finland and Sweden, diplomats said, as Turkey renewed its

www.lapresse.us

 

[cupid_stunt]

The big questions seems to be exactly what is Erdoğan up to, and what is he hoping to get out it?

After initial hesitation about the seriousness of Turkey’s objections, its president, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, has doubled down on his threat to veto Finland’s and Sweden’s applications for membership of Nato, saying there is no point in either country sending delegations to Ankara to persuade him otherwise.

On Wednesday, he also extended his demands from the two he outlined on Monday to 10, leading to claims that he is using blackmail.

The Nordic political class initially appeared sceptical about Erdoğan’s seriousness. Finland’s president, Sauli Niinistö, said he spoke with Erdoğan a month ago and none of his current concerns were aired. It was also being said that no early warning flares were sent up by Turkey’s Nato ambassador, Basat Öztürk.

But that assessment is changing. Jonathan Eyal, the associate director of the Rusi thinktank, said Erdoğan “lives on the edge and operates through brinkmanship”.

Eyal added: “Many of his demands about the PKK are part of a familiar Turkish tune. But he has domestic reasons to be standing up to America. The economy is in tatters and his popularity is at an all time low.”

With inflation at 66.9% and facing elections next summer, there is no harm galvanising the nationalist vote, but that is not to say Erdoğan’s complaints are entirely synthetic.

On Monday, the Turkish justice ministry identified six alleged PKK members it is seeking to extradite from Finland and 11 from Sweden. Add in people accused by Turkey of supporting the US-based cleric Fethullah Gülen, who Ankara accuses of orchestrating the 2016 coup attempt, and Turkey wants 12 people returned from Finland and 21 from Sweden.

Nordic diplomats say this list was last presented in 2017 and has not been the subject of any Turkish lobbying in recent years.

Why has Erdoğan doubled down on threat to veto Nordic Nato bids?

Analysis: By demanding extradition of alleged PKK members, Turkish president could have one eye on elections

www.theguardian.com

 

[spitfire]

With inflation at 66.9%

Fucking hell!

 

[dessiato]

Reckon somewhere in Spain. Seville maybe. Or Leon if you fancy the north.

South of Spain or North of Norway.

That’s me decided then. I’ve got my residencia permanente, I‘m off back to Seville.

 

[kebabking]

With inflation at 66.9%

Fucking hell!

I think we need to increase the garrison in the Falklands...

 

[emanymton]

That's nice, do you have an opinion on any of that?

Do we want to know?
Do we care?

 

[Dystopiary]

Croatia are not happy about Finland and Sweden joining NATO. Should think there's a lot more room for... negotiation with them than there'd be with Turkey though.