Should the EU/NATO use direct military action to help defend Ukraine?

[Ax^]

is it nato's fault again

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

is it nato's fault again

We've always been at war with East NATO

 

[RD2003]

is it nato's fault again

Doesn't matter that it's the evil Peter Hitchens writing about you liberal lefties when it's true.

How NATO Lost Its Way

The city of Oxford in the 1980s was pretty unanimous about a lot of things. One of them was that deterrence was bad and that NATO was the work of the devil. Almost all my neighbors had posters in their windows or bumper-stickers on their cars denouncing plans to deploy

compactmag.com

 

[Ax^]

never had someone try to comdem me whilst quoting Peter Hitchens before

not sure how to react

 

[RD2003]

never had someone try to comdem me whilst quoting Peter Hitchens before

not sure how to react

There's always a first time. React how it pleases you. It doesn't matter in any way, shape or form.

 

[Ax^]

i'm just confused with quoting a fella who would not of raised arms against the axis powers in both of the first 2 world wars

but has hated amougst other topics the eu, immiragation , gay marriage, LGBQ rights and facemask


at least he likes Russia eh

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Just send Mr Putin a nice bottle of perfume.

 

[RD2003]

i'm just confused with quoting a fella who would not of raised arms against the axis powers in both of the first 2 world wars

but has hated amougst other topics the eu, immiragation , gay marriage, LGBQ rights and facemask


at least he likes Russia eh

Can you quote where he says he would not 'of' raised arms in those situations?

And also where he expresses his 'hatred' of all those other things? I do remember him saying, in an article for Prospect magazine, that the best thing about the left is its implacable opposition to racism.

Whatever else he may be, he seems far less hate-filled than many of those who oppose him.

 

[RD2003]

Just send Mr Putin a nice bottle of perfume.

Go on then.

 

[Ax^]

Can you quote where he says he would not 'of' raised arms in those situations?

And also where he expresses his 'hatred' of all those other things? I do remember him saying, in an article for Prospect magazine, that the best thing about the left is its implacable opposition to racism.

Whatever else he may be, he seems far less hate-filled than many of those who oppose him.

i don't want to re read any parts of his books


you do it, i'll wait

 

[RD2003]

i don't want to re read any parts of his books


you do it, i'll wait

So you don't want to know what he actually says* but still want to accuse him of heinous views? Never mind, I suppose that's just the way it goes.

*For what it's worth I disagree with almost all of it while being able to see that it's merely an alternative viewpoint to mine.

 

[Ax^]

not sure what your arguing he has terrible views

 

[RD2003]

not sure what your arguing he has terrible views

Continue to be unsure then, and bask in your own righteousness.

(Cunting Christ, I can almost understand the 'Paul Marsh'/ Paul Stott trajectory sometimes.)

 

[Ax^]

go back and read post 40


thank you

 

[RD2003]

go back and read post 40


thank you

Why?

 

[Ax^]

because i feel you miss a point somewhere

more so if you believe peter hitchens is less hate filled that the people who criticise the gobshite

 

[RD2003]

because i feel you miss a point somewhere

more so if you believe peter hitchens is less hate filled that the people who criticise the gobshite

I think I'd like you to go away now.

 

[Ax^]

.

 

[Ax^]

.

 

[Dystopiary]

'And the generals sat, and the lines on the map moved from side to side' was a poignant line when written in a world before more or less everybody was a general.

What Roger Waters said on the war in Ukraine is abysmal.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I broadly agree with Yanis Varoufakis here. An end to the killing has to be the primary objective, and as Varoufakis says, a deal that leaves everyone feeling a bit uneasy is the way to do that.

the whole point of resisting is to come to the point where we sue for peace. We can come to an agreement that leaves everybody slightly dissatisfied, which is the optimal agreement.

I think that last point is a good one. As he says, it applies to what happened in Yugoslavia. It also applies to Northern Ireland.

As for notions of regime change, he simply points out the track record of liberal interventionists in that regard.

Ukraine cannot win this war

 

[Cid]

I broadly agree with Yanis Varoufakis here. An end to the killing has to be the primary objective, and as Varoufakis says, a deal that leaves everyone feeling a bit uneasy is the way to do that.


I think that last point is a good one. As he says, it applies to what happened in Yugoslavia. It also applies to Northern Ireland.

As for notions of regime change, he simply points out the track record of liberal interventionists in that regard.

Ukraine cannot win this war

What is the 'a bit uneasy' solution here though?

 

[maomao]

What is the 'a bit uneasy' solution here though?

Presumably giving up Donetsk and Lugansk. Can't see the Ukranians letting go of Mariupol though.

I think one of the main problems with any agreement is that Putin's lies and disinformation schtick has made Russia very hard to trust.

 

[Idris2002]

I broadly agree with Yanis Varoufakis here. An end to the killing has to be the primary objective, and as Varoufakis says, a deal that leaves everyone feeling a bit uneasy is the way to do that.


I think that last point is a good one. As he says, it applies to what happened in Yugoslavia. It also applies to Northern Ireland.

As for notions of regime change, he simply points out the track record of liberal interventionists in that regard.

Ukraine cannot win this war

Ukraine cannot win this war, but it can probably win the next one.

1. A de facto partition of Ukraine ends the present killing.

2. Nationalist ultra assassinates the Z-man.

3. Ukraine assiduously regroups, retrains and rearms.

4. Putin dies.

5. While Russia is otherwise engaged in the post-Putin chaos, Ukraine drives to take back what is still its territory under international law.

 

[Cid]

Presumably giving up Donetsk and Lugansk. Can't see the Ukranians letting go of Mariupol though.

I think one of the main problems with any agreement is that Putin's lies and disinformation schtick has made Russia very hard to trust.

Reading a bit further:

...that makes a very simple trade, a deal. Russia withdraws from Ukraine, in exchange for an end to the sanctions and a commitment, by the West, that Ukraine is going to be part of the West but not part of Nato.

I'm pretty sure that has been the Ukrainian position since mid march at least. Though this war fucks up time perception as badly as covid. That interview is published April 6th, Varoufakis seems a bit lost tbh.

 

[emanymton]

I broadly agree with Yanis Varoufakis here. An end to the killing has to be the primary objective, and as Varoufakis says, a deal that leaves everyone feeling a bit uneasy is the way to do that.


I think that last point is a good one. As he says, it applies to what happened in Yugoslavia. It also applies to Northern Ireland.

As for notions of regime change, he simply points out the track record of liberal interventionists in that regard.

Ukraine cannot win this war

The "we must stop the killing" line is appealing. But my issue is what it really means is we must stop the fighting. But as long as Russia occupies any part of Ukraine the killing will go on, even if the fighting stops. As will the forced removals, torture and rape.

Edit - plus any peace will just be used by Russia to prepare for another invasion sometime down the line.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Yes. Russia has behaved in contravention of all international law regarding targeting civilians.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What is the 'a bit uneasy' solution here though?

According to Varoufakis, Russia withdraws, Ukraine agrees to neutrality, Crimea remains annexed. He doesn't mention what happens to Donbas, but presumably some guarantee of autonomy at the very least.

Varoufakis thinks Eastern Europe joining NATO was a mistake - but he also acknowledges that Eastern Europeans might have good reasons to disagree. He thinks a neutral Ukraine is needed.

 

[emanymton]

According to Varoufakis, Russia withdraws, Ukraine agrees to neutrality, Crimea remains annexed. He doesn't mention what happens to Donbas, but presumably some guarantee of autonomy at the very least.

Varoufakis thinks Eastern Europe joining NATO was a mistake - but he also acknowledges that Eastern Europeans might have good reasons to disagree. He thinks a neutral Ukraine is needed.

That's just fantasy land, it is more a less a return to the situation before the war. Russia will simply not agree to that at this point.

 

[Cid]

According to Varoufakis, Russia withdraws, Ukraine agrees to neutrality, Crimea remains annexed. He doesn't mention what happens to Donbas, but presumably some guarantee of autonomy at the very least.

Varoufakis thinks Eastern Europe joining NATO was a mistake - but he also acknowledges that Eastern Europeans might have good reasons to disagree. He thinks a neutral Ukraine is needed.

I think that would be nice, but is hopelessly unrealistic.