Should the EU/NATO use direct military action to help defend Ukraine?

[littlebabyjesus]

I think that would be nice, but is hopelessly unrealistic.

For Varoufakis, the idea that Ukraine can 'win' is hopelessly unrealistic. And I think he is very right to point out that Putin has form in this regard - Chechnya has shown that he's not averse to killing hundreds of thousands of people if that serves his purposes. A forced withdrawal could be devastating.

 

[emanymton]

I broadly agree with Yanis Varoufakis here. An end to the killing has to be the primary objective, and as Varoufakis says, a deal that leaves everyone feeling a bit uneasy is the way to do that.


I think that last point is a good one. As he says, it applies to what happened in Yugoslavia. It also applies to Northern Ireland.

As for notions of regime change, he simply points out the track record of liberal interventionists in that regard.

Ukraine cannot win this war

I have only skimmed the article so far but I notice he mentions this.

"My point is this: there was an agreement between Gorbachev and George Bush Senior that Gorbachev would let Eastern Europe go its own way, on the condition that Nato would not expand eastward. We know that; this is well established. "

This comes up a lot, but it isn't true, there was never any such agreement or promise.

It was suggested as a possibility by the Secretary of State, but it was never agreed on, never made it into a treaty and Bush not only didn't make the promise he actually opposed the idea and made sure it was not acted upon.

Covered a bit in this article.

Russia’s belief in Nato ‘betrayal’ – and why it matters today

The idea that the Soviet Union was tricked in 1989-90 is at the heart of Russia’s confrontation with the west

www.theguardian.com

 

[emanymton]

For Varoufakis, the idea that Ukraine can 'win' is hopelessly unrealistic. And I think he is very right to point out that Putin has form in this regard - Chechnya has shown that he's not averse to killing hundreds of thousands of people if that serves his purposes. A forced withdrawal could be devastating.

But the deal he proposes is even less likely to happen at this point than Ukraine winning.

If that deal was on the table and if there was even a chance Russia would stick to then yes absolutely go for for it. But meanwhile in the real world what does he think should be done?

 

[gosub]

What Roger Waters said on the war in Ukraine is abysmal.

Given the support he has rendered in the past to me and mates(Romanian Orphans 97).

I don't see the problem.



Its an opinion and he is, at the very least, entitled to one

 

[cupid_stunt]

Given the support he has rendered in the past to me and mates(Romanian Orphans 97).

I don't see the problem.

At the very start he expresses the view that the west shouldn't be supplying weapons, that would have allowed Russia to take over the entire country, and you don't see a problem with that?

 

[zahir]

I don't see the problem.

He's arguing for an end to the supply of weapons to Ukraine which, if it happened, would probably lead to its defeat.

eta:

‘This is a crazy, unjust attack’: Pink Floyd re-form to support Ukraine

Exclusive: Disgusted by the Russian invasion, David Gilmour speaks about band’s first brand new song in 28 years, which samples a Ukrainian musician now on the front line – and expresses ‘disappointment’ in Roger Waters

www.theguardian.com

A week before Russia invaded Ukraine, Waters told an interviewer on Russia Today that talk of a Russian invasion was “bullshit ... anybody with an IQ above room temperature knows [an invasion] is nonsense”; he has subsequently condemned the invasioncalling it “the act of a gangster”, while also condemning “propaganda to demonise Russia”. It’s a subject on which Gilmour won’t be drawn. “Let’s just say I was disappointed and let’s move on. Read into that what you will.”

 

[Dystopiary]

Given the support he has rendered in the past to me and mates(Romanian Orphans 97).

I don't see the problem.



Its an opinion and he is, at the very least, entitled to one

I don't agree with him. The young woman wrote back to him and his second response was much worse imo.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

He's arguing for an end to the supply of weapons to Ukraine which, if it happened, would probably lead to its defeat.

eta:

‘This is a crazy, unjust attack’: Pink Floyd re-form to support Ukraine

Exclusive: Disgusted by the Russian invasion, David Gilmour speaks about band’s first brand new song in 28 years, which samples a Ukrainian musician now on the front line – and expresses ‘disappointment’ in Roger Waters

www.theguardian.com

I don't particularly want to be cast as a defender of Roger Waters. He does have some batshit opinions. But he wasn't the only one to get this wrong pre-invasion. At least he has subsequently condemned it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

As for people appearing to be a bit lost on this subject when it comes to what to do and how to respond, aren't we all a bit lost? I know I am.

 

[zahir]

I don't particularly want to be cast as a defender of Roger Waters. He does have some batshit opinions. But he wasn't the only one to get this wrong pre-invasion. At least he has subsequently condemned it.

He's still getting it very wrong post-invasion.

 

[Duncan2]

As for people appearing to be a bit lost on this subject when it comes to what to do and how to respond, aren't we all a bit lost? I know I am.

Reassured to see that the majority by far of Urbs do not at this point think that it would be a good idea for NATO to involve itself directly in this war.

 

[Cid]

As for people appearing to be a bit lost on this subject when it comes to what to do and how to respond, aren't we all a bit lost? I know I am.

Yes of course... It's just that Varoufakis' take seemed to be particularly disconnected from the situation as is. I think the starting point for any discussion of potential ways out is to at least acknowledge the positions and actions of the parties involved.

 

[Flavour]

This is all selfish bullshit and it's high time we all admit it. We don't want nato to get involved cos nuclear war (end to our own relatively comfortable lives, rocketing gas bills notwithstanding) - not because we support putin. (using the Royal "we" here)

But nato IS already in the war. Multiple nato members like Slovakia, Germany and the UK are supplying arms directly to Ukraine. That is involvement. Sides have been taken. Nato as an institution may not say much but its constituent members are pushing the boundaries of "how much can we do without provoking direct attack by Russia?" - - the answer as it turns out is quite a lot.

So while the majoroty have voted no in this poll, I don't believe that same majority are opposed to nato members supplying arms to Ukraine (which, i underline, is military action), it's a cop out. The only thing people are really opposed to is nuclear war, and plenty are happy to sacrifice the lives of millions of Ukrainians for that (thinking of all those Ukrainians who've probably left their homes for good, and all the others who would have to live under the putin regime in a negotiated peace)

 

[maomao]

This is all selfish bullshit and it's high time we all admit it. We don't want nato to get involved cos nuclear war (end to our own relatively comfortable lives, rocketing gas bills notwithstanding) - not because we support putin. (using the Royal "we" here

Is it selfish to not want nuclear war? It won't do the Ukranians any favours and I don't want my kids to die.

 

[RD2003]

Is it selfish to not want nuclear war? It won't do the Ukranians any favours and I don't want my kids to die.

Have you never heard of solidarity and internationalism? If Ukrainians are dying then we should all die.

 

[rekil]

Waters is just carrying his noxious assadism and conspiraloonery over to ukraine. He follows 31 accounts on the twitter machine all of whom are cranklibs. Sidney Blumenthal's spawn, Ben Norton, Tulsi, Khalek, Jimmy fucking Dore etc. The ghastly australian astrologer he was boosting for ages must've been dropped somewhere along the line at least. Still. Kill the ol' hippy.

 

[agricola]

I said no, but a suitably senior person (Biden, really) must urgently contact Putin and confirm what his intentions are.

Them grabbing the Donbas and leaving the rest of Ukraine battered is much different (in terms of the necessary reaction) to then carrying out a genocide with an added effect of causing starvation across the rest of the world.

 

[rekil]

How utterly shit must your politics be when you're using old cunts like this as reference points anyway. Worse than Bonoites.

 

[RD2003]

How utterly shit must your politics be when you're using old cunts like this as reference points anyway. Worse than Bonoites.

Strange how quoting a line Waters wrote in about 1972 should suddenly make the thread all about his of little matter opinions fifty years later.

 

[gosub]

At the very start he expresses the view that the west shouldn't be supplying weapons, that would have allowed Russia to take over the entire country, and you don't see a problem with that?

My opinion IS different to his (and presumably less influential) but as I said, he has my respect.

Prior to the invasion I was in the if you want peace prepare for war camp. and still found some resonance in his words

 

[dilute micro]

I said no, but a suitably senior person (Biden, really) must urgently contact Putin and confirm what his intentions are.

Them grabbing the Donbas and leaving the rest of Ukraine battered is much different (in terms of the necessary reaction) to then carrying out a genocide with an added effect of causing starvation across the rest of the world.

Not sure Putin would tell his intentions.

 

[kebabking]

Not sure Putin would tell his intentions.

Nor that anyone would believe what he said....

 

[agricola]

Not sure Putin would tell his intentions.

He probably wouldn't, and as kebabking says who would believe him even if he did, but the collective West needs to keep (start, in many cases) talking to him seriously. The quality of the Western diplomatic response, which has been incredibly gimmicky, is terrible so far.

 

[cupid_stunt]

He probably wouldn't, and as kebabking says who would believe him even if he did, but the collective West needs to keep (start, in many cases) talking to him seriously. The quality of the Western diplomatic response, which has been incredibly gimmicky, is terrible so far.

Oh, come on, the west made lots of diplomatic effort, but Putin played his game, lied, lied and lied again, particularly look at the egg left on Macron's face.

Even Biden offered to meet Putin face-to-face, but Putin declined.

 

[kebabking]

He probably wouldn't, and as kebabking says who would believe him even if he did, but the collective West needs to keep (start, in many cases) talking to him seriously. The quality of the Western diplomatic response, which has been incredibly gimmicky, is terrible so far.

Diplomacy needs a mutual intention to engage, as well as there being some kind of 'landing strip'. Neither, Imv, are present in this, so anything is just performative guff.

You might also look at the example of Macron, who tried diplomacy. It didn't just not work, but he was hung out to dry by Putin. Can't see many queueing up to made fools of in his place.

If Russia asks China to mediate and help choreograph then I think we can take that as a serious attempt to end this, but until then people are going to see anything, whether from the west or Russia, as just part of Putin's information operation.

 

[LDC]

You might also look at the example of Macron, who tried diplomacy. It didn't just not work, but he was hung out to dry by Putin. Can't see many queueing up to made fools of in his place.

Do you have Corbyn's number to hand? He's pretty sure everyone just needs to sit down and work it out together.

 

[agricola]

Diplomacy needs a mutual intention to engage, as well as there being some kind of 'landing strip'. Neither, Imv, are present in this, so anything is just performative guff.

You might also look at the example of Macron, who tried diplomacy. It didn't just not work, but he was hung out to dry by Putin. Can't see many queueing up to made fools of in his place.

If Russia asks China to mediate and help choreograph then I think we can take that as a serious attempt to end this, but until then people are going to see anything, whether from the west or Russia, as just part of Putin's information operation.

I don't think Macron was made a fool of (if you mean the proposed Biden meeting), and in any case if leaders think because they might look fools for trying to talk it means they shouldn't try then that is IMHO completely backwards. Russia has to be engaged with, now more than ever.

 

[bluescreen]

I don't think Macron was made a fool of (if you mean the proposed Biden meeting), and in any case if leaders think because they might look fools for trying to talk it means they shouldn't try then that is IMHO completely backwards. Russia has to be engaged with, now more than ever.

If you were at the other end of Putin's long table, what would you say?

 

[cupid_stunt]

I don't think Macron was made a fool of (if you mean the proposed Biden meeting), and in any case if leaders think because they might look fools for trying to talk it means they shouldn't try then that is IMHO completely backwards. Russia has to be engaged with, now more than ever.

BIB - he was, and that's a fact.

It's pointless trying to engage with Putin, until he shows some signs of being prepared to genuinely engage.

 

[kebabking]

I don't think Macron was made a fool of (if you mean the proposed Biden meeting), and in any case if leaders think because they might look fools for trying to talk it means they shouldn't try then that is IMHO completely backwards. Russia has to be engaged with, now more than ever.

What do think they could live with, that Ukraine could live with, and given their behaviour, what weight do you think Ukr should place on whatever commitments they make?

I don't think Russia is simply capable of sticking to any agreement it makes, whether for 5 years or a week. Until a very different political structure emerges, Russia's word isn't worth shit...