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Should men describe themselves as feminists, if they are supportive of feminism?

they may be saying such things because they are terrified of being raped, and try to differentiate themselves from women who have been raped in an effort to convince themselves that it won't happen to them.

It's not right, and can't prevent rape obviously but it's not as simple as educating them on political and social issues. It's sheer fear.
 
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If true equality is ever to be achieved, then the wealth needs to funnel away from the pockets of the topmost male earners and into the offshore accounts of the women who are every bit as deserving. Why should male executives be able to afford five or six mountain estates across the world while their female counterparts are forced to make do with just four?

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equationgirl said:
they may be saying such things because they are terrified of being raped, and try to differentiate themselves from women who have been raped in an effort to convince themselves that it won't happen to them.

It's not right, and can't prevent rape obviously but it's not as simple as educating them on political and social issues. It's sheer fear.
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One of the referred to women was in an abusive relationship, so it's not like she shouldn't have a bit more insight. Some of the stuff she believes and questions she asks are because she's not terribly smart or at least spends too much time absorbed in celeb culture. For example, and not related to the topic here, she asked if Australia has Xmas on the same day as us. When we told her yes, she then went to ask why it's sunny...
 
littlebabyjesus said:
I'd love to think that was a piss-take, but I fear it isn't. Same crap Andrea Dworkin used to come out with. Insulting to men and about 99 per cent of women as well. If she's serious, I feel sad for her.
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I think it's a good bit more extreme than Dworkin. The question is whether it is feminist or twattish. It can only be one.
 
story said:
A fella I know keeps spouting and proclaiming about stuff and justifies it by stating that he's proud to be a feminist. He's sometimes arguing with actual women when he does this.

Every time it happens, I think "Well I'm not sure that you are a feminist... And I wonder if any man can really claim to be one... One the other hand, why can't / shouldn't a man be a feminist...? Is it sexist to say that a man can't sufficiently understand or appreciate the female perspective?"

So to sum up, I don't know, but I'd be interested to know what others think.
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But I don't think men need to sufficiently understand the female perspective (they are never totally going to get what it is to be a woman, and vice versa) to believe things and behave in ways that adequately portray/fit a feminist ideal....

Just like white middle class people can be avid anti-fascists. You don't need to belong to the oppressed/minority group to fully support their rights and that making up part of who you are/what you are about.


I am personally perfectly happy for men to describe themselves as feminists.
 
8ball said:
I think it's a good bit more extreme than Dworkin.
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Not much. She said that "romance is rape embellished with meaningful looks". She said it more than once, as in this article. She also said this kind of thing:

Under patriarchy, no woman is safe to live her life, or to love, or to mother children. Under patriarchy, every woman is a victim, past, present, and future. Under patriarchy, every woman's daughter is a victim, past, present, and future. Under patriarchy, every woman's son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman
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People have defended Dworkin to me on here, but I'm afraid I can't take any defence of her seriously. She was a good writer, maybe that's what takes people in. I don't know.

ETA: For me, this is the danger of taking an idea, an analytical tool, such as patriarchy but using it without other tools that might help you work out what is going on - to analyse power relations based on all kinds of other things such as money and class. It's the danger in all identity politics - you can end up talking absolute drivel if it isn't linked to a wider politics.
 
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stethoscope said:
In feminist groups I've had involvement with in the past, the terms for supportive men tended to be 'pro-feminist' or 'feminist ally'. Though I'm not precious personally if a man calls himself a feminist, what is more important is respecting and listening to women's experiences and voices first and foremost (rather than dominating them).
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Aye!
 
littlebabyjesus said:
People have defended Dworkin to me on here, but I'm afraid I can't take any defence of her seriously. She was a good writer, maybe that's what takes people in. I don't know.
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She did say that, in the same way that Germaine Greer said 'women have no idea how much men hate them', which is another punchy quote which needs to be taken in the context of the whole thesis, I'd say.

I don't agree with Dworkin on a good many things, and I think some things she said resemble wibblewind's output when you look at headline quotes, but less so when taken in the round.

I'm aware this will cut no ice at all if you also think Greer is a fruitcake. :D
 
8ball said:
She did say that, in the same way that Germaine Greer said 'women have no idea how much men hate them', which is another punchy quote which needs to be taken in the context of the whole thesis, I'd say.
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Did you read the article I linked to as well? Is that also not in context?

I have no problem with a bit of hyperbolic rhetoric on occasion, but one thing that's struck me from what I've seen and read of GG is how little she seems to understand men, tbh. I actually think she underestmates how similar men and women are.

As for Dworkin, well I lose my sense of humour quite quickly when I'm called a rapist, and when any woman I have sex with is called an exploited victim.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Did you read the article I linked to as well? Is that also not in context?.
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I missed your link - on a tablet and they don't stand out quite so much as on the laptop.
I've read the whole thing now - it's challenging in a very Dworkin way obv, but there is a lot there I would agree with, especially about the night being used as a form of gender control in a culturally-embedded way.

You mention men and women being similar - I think most feminists (aside from gender separatists) would agree in terms of people's basic nature and that it is culture and socialisation that is the root of injustice.

I'd be interested to see what women reading this thread think of the Dworkin article - feels a bit odd to be two blokes talking on a feminism thread without intervening female perspectives.
 
Johnny Vodka said:
One of the referred to women was in an abusive relationship, so it's not like she shouldn't have a bit more insight. Some of the stuff she believes and questions she asks are because she's not terribly smart or at least spends too much time absorbed in celeb culture. For example, and not related to the topic here, she asked if Australia has Xmas on the same day as us. When we told her yes, she then went to ask why it's sunny...
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Just because she's been in an abusive relationship it doesn't mean she instinctively understands the subject of rape more or has more insight

And so what if she indulges in the escapism of celebrity culture sometimes? if I had been in an abusive relationship is might do the same thing.

Look at how judgemental and horrible some of your post was. Have a bit of compassion.
 
Is that feminism, though?

I also agree with the point about night being used as a form of gender control. Doesn't make the other stuff she says any less wrong though.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
I've indulged in romance in the past. Fairly cackhandedly, I'll admit.

I keep being told she never said stuff, but she did. In that article I linked to she said this:



And I'm not quoting out of context. If you read the article, she isn't being ironic.
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Nothing in that article says that all men are rapists. At all. It is a critique of the horrible concept of "romance" in patriarchy.
 
8ball said:
Did we establish that?

Which one is witchwind?
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Thats the sort of shit im on about.

Much more extreme than greer and dworkin. I find this stuff very hard to relate to. There's a fucking difference and im not just saying this, because im brainwashed by patriarchy. you dont feel violated and dirty after sex with a man that you enjoy. Because you enjoy it! AFAIK she also said that dildos were an anti gay conspiracy if its her blog im thinking of.

Also saying that all sex with a man is rape completely trivialises rape. And what about lesbians who rape other lesbians?
 
FridgeMagnet said:
"I lose my sense of humour quite quickly when I'm called a rapist"

Let's save time—what do you think Dworkin is calling you and why do you think that?
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ffs read my posts. 'I've engaged in romance in the past'.

She should not trivialise rape in this way. And she's being incredibly insulting to many women in that article. They are somehow brainwashed if they want a bit of romance.

There are ways to critique romance and power structures, but that isn't it.
 
frogwoman said:
Thats the sort of shit im on about.

Much more extreme than greer and dworkin. I find this stuff very hard to relate to. There's a fucking difference and im not just saying this, because im brainwashed by patriarchy. you dont feel violated and dirty after sex with a man that you enjoy. Because you enjoy it! AFAIK she also said that dildos were an anti gay conspiracy if its her blog im thinking of.

Also saying that all sex with a man is rape completely trivialises rape. And what about lesbians who rape other lesbians?
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There is always going to be mentally twisted people with mentally twisted ideas that belong to any given group.
You don't have to relate to or understand or associate with them.

In my head (at least) they have nothing to do with the bigger picture and probably best scoffed at that trying to understand.

Sorry if I have missunderstood what you meant though
 
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