Should men describe themselves as feminists, if they are supportive of feminism?

[Fez909]

The first. Seriously, learn to deal with with disagreement.

So far you haven't disagreed with anything I've said. Learn to make your points in public, not just in your head.

 

[butchersapron]

Are you gonna make a point or just shit all over the thread?

No,let's just make rhetorical displays.

 

[J Ed]

I've always thought that at its core feminism just meant the belief that men and women should be equal, and the additional issues are peripheral to that. I would hesitate to call myself a 'feminist' since most of the men I have seen who have declared themselves to be 'male feminists' have been using it as cover for some pretty nasty views and behaviour.

Then again I don't think that anyone has ever asked me whether I am a feminist or not, I hope that my behaviour day to day shows that I am supportive of the idea that men and women should be equal.

 

[butchersapron]

So far you haven't disagreed with anything I've said. Learn to make your points in public, not just in your head.

Done/did.

You haven't said anything to disagree with. You haven't said anything.

 

[butchersapron]

I've always thought that at its core feminism just meant the belief that men and women should be equal, and the additional issues are peripheral to that. I would hesitate to call myself a 'feminist' since most of the men I have seen who have declared themselves to be 'male feminists' have been using it as cover for some pretty nasty views and behaviour.

Then again I don't think that anyone has ever asked me whether I am a feminist or not, I hope that my behaviour day to day shows that I am supportive of the idea that men and women should be equal.

It's a term that is part of class war - does it just mean a posho getting an internship or the way that young mothers tell a shop what price milk is going to be? The right of them both to be female? Fuck off.

 

[J Ed]

It's a term that is part of class war - does it just mean a posho getting an internship or the way that young mothers tell a shop what price milk is going to be? The right of them both to be female? Fuck off.

I agree that it has become that in a way - banks crow about how fantastic they are that they support female venture capitalists or whatever, support for Clinton's bombing campaigns - but it doesn't have to be that way and it shouldn't. That isn't the experience of most women, surely feminism should be about the E15 mums more than any of that. When I think about feminism I don't think about the right of a proportionate number of female sociopaths to male sociopaths in boardrooms.

 

[butchersapron]

I agree that it has become that in a way - banks crow about how fantastic they are that they support female venture capitalists or whatever, support for Clinton's bombing campaigns - but it doesn't have to be that way and it shouldn't. That isn't the experience of most women, surely feminism should be about the E15 mums more than any of that. When I think about feminism I don't think about the right of a proportionate number of female sociopaths to male sociopaths in boardrooms.

People can make what use they like of it - i think there is none progressive possible. (cue:thanks for talking for me etc)

 

[butchersapron]

Isn't it odd that a way to challenge the structural imperative to produce sexism (bodies and labour) is just cast aside in we're all feminists now?

You fucking knobhead fez.

Do you hate being nasty to women, well so do i, smashing - all is good.

 

[frogwoman]

On the liberal/sex positive side its because of a belief that all that stuff (pornography, sex-work etc) could ever be problematic and as you alluded to a complete dismissal of the idea that views propagated by some - SOME - activists who have declared themselves to represent the trans community or sex-workers etc it could ever be problematic. Ive gone into some of this on the commentariat thread. Theres also a preoccupation in some quarters with issues i really consider to be quite trivial ie twitter spats compared to women and mens pay differentials, FGM, the fashion industry and the sex industry. and yes im with you, completely, on the terf/swerf stuff (although it doesnt really need to be pointed out that a few radfems do display a real hatred of trans people). Ive talked about my problems with the ideology at some length here and elsewhere and i dont want to rehash it all again.

On the radical feminist side there seems again among some radfems to completely ignore the fact that the position of women has been transformed by capitalism. if you read a lot of radfem literature you would think that we were all living barefoot and pregnant and chained to the kitchen sink, it both ignores the fact that women are playing a part in the administration of capitalism and the fact that women are increasingly subject to the same pressures as men as well as traditional patriarchal pressures. Radical feminism doesnt explain the fact that in women's prisons there are rapes and similar sexual etc violence as in mens jails. Why is this happening? Another example is that some radfems say that women are discouraged from having adult female friends by patriarchy, well thats true to a degree, but the same could definitely be said of men, stratification in the workplace and the increased atomisation of people and an expectation that they sacrifice social and family commitments is true of either sex.

You need feminism that combines with marxism, I have been reading about a lot of this stuff recently and to be honest was thinking of starting a thread on it, I really struggle to get my head around it and the online debates surrounding feminism get so toxic that i don't really feel comfortable discussing it much of the time.

Why do you think that is? The not-appealing i mean.

 

[butchersapron]

Not that the white middle-class brigade like being on the same side as one another. There’s always a tension between all of us being sisterly, all equal under the sight of the patriarchal male oppressor, and the fact that we aren’t really sisters, or equal, or even friends. We despise one another for being posh and privileged, we loathe one another for being stupid oiks. We hate the tall poppies for being show-offs, we can’t bear the crabs in the bucket that pinch us back. All this produces the ineffable whiff so often sensed in feminist emanations, those anxious, jargon-filled, overpolite topnotes with their undertow of envy and rancour, that perpetual sharp-elbowed jostle for the moral high ground.

 

[danny la rouge]

and then on the other hand there are a certain breed of rad fem that seem to suggest that angela merkel is more oppressed than some blokes working a dirty and dangerous job for a pittance, simply because they have a penis and she doesn't.

indeed.

This is the TV presenter issue.

Yes, a woman presenting a TV programme should be paid the same as a man doing it. But we aren't seriously going to say: "if only people paying higher rate tax could have gender pay parity, our goal of an egalitarian society will have been achieved". No matter how many Guardian columns suggest otherwise.

 

[frogwoman]

I am also going to get flamed for saying this but I have worked in male dominated environments, at one point being the only one of two women in a dept of 11 people, while there was the occasional bit of casual sexism at no point did I ever feel unsafe or have the day to day experience that both radfems and the liberal intsrsectionalist types describe as a day to day part of interacting with men. I live in a house with three men only one of whom could be described as even approaching 'a feminist' at no point has any of them so much as made a drunken pass at me, granted theres been the odd, very occasional sexist joke but nothing to make me unsafe and scared of living with them. Maybe I am missing something. wouldnt be the first time.

 

[danny la rouge]

Twitter is the worst for discussion though

Twitter is completely useless as a forum for discussion. Sharing links, great. Engaging in debate, forget it.

But I digress.

 

[Fez909]

Isn't it odd that a way to challenge the structural imperative to produce sexism (bodies and labour) is just cast aside in we're all feminists now?

You fucking knobhead fez.

Do you hate being nasty to women, well so do i, smashing - all is good.

I never said we're all feminists. I just said there's nothing in being a feminist that excludes men. Stop trying to make out I claimed any different, you disingenuous cunt.

 

[butchersapron]

I never said we're all feminists. I just said there's nothing in being a feminist that excludes men. Stop trying to make out I claimed any different, you disingenuous cunt.

I'd stop this now.

Thanks for the clarification mind - i was proper confused before.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

IME some men have more feminist views than some women. For some odd reason, the topic of rape came up in the office the other week and I was quite surprised by the views of some of my female colleagues ('many victims make it up because they regret sex the next morning' kind of views).

 

[butchersapron]

If you're a man supportive of feminism then of course you should describe yourself as a feminist.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Not all women are feminists proper or have some views that seem anti-feminist! Perhaps that is one the problems of having fixed definitions.

Let's just provoke eachother to and call eachother cunts, real equality.

 

[butchersapron]

IME some men have more feminist views than some women. For some odd reason, the topic of rape came up in the office the other week and I was quite surprised by the views of some of my female colleagues ('many victims make it up because they regret sex the next morning' kind of views).

Here we go. You forgot suicide.

 

[weepiper]

IME some men have more feminist views than some women. For some odd reason, the topic of rape came up in the office the other week and I was quite surprised by the views of some of my female colleagues ('many victims make it up because they regret sex the next morning' kind of views).

Really? The topic came up? And you were quite surprised by the views of some of your female colleagues? Knock me down with a feather.

 

[butchersapron]

Not all women are feminists proper or have some views that seem anti-feminist! Perhaps that is one the problems of having fixed definitions.

Let's just provoke eachother to and call eachother cunts, real equality.

This is about men,i thank you to respect that.

 

[Favelado]

If you're a man supportive of feminism then of course you should describe yourself as a feminist.

Cool. We got there in the end.

 

[butchersapron]

Cool. We got there in the end.

Is this the f's dozy day?

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Really? The topic came up? And you were quite surprised by the views of some of your female colleagues? Knock me down with a feather.

Are you not particularly surprised when you hear those views spouted by women (if you do), given that you generally associate those views with the worst sort of men?

 

[frogwoman]

IME some men have more feminist views than some women. For some odd reason, the topic of rape came up in the office the other week and I was quite surprised by the views of some of my female colleagues ('many victims make it up because they regret sex the next morning' kind of views).

I find this too sometimes. my mum showed me a fairly sexist video (look up 'crazy hot matrix') the other day when i was over and was in stitches, she was gleefully saying 'i think feminists will go nuts dont you' i had to remind her i was a feminist lol. shes also had a fairly successful career in some fairly male dominated jobs. I dont know why some women have these attitudes tbh and yep i think that perhaps its become less acceptable in some quarters for men to openly hold them in front of women?

 

[Favelado]

Is this the f's dozy day?

Yeah maybe. I don't understand that either. Everyone else is the problem.

 

[butchersapron]

Yeah maybe. I don't understand that either. Everyone else is the problem.

Two people - you are one - have posted without saying anything. They both begin with f. That's it.

 

[Favelado]

Two people - you are one - have posted without saying anything. They both begin with f. That's it.

Some of your posts are educational and helpful to a comparative novice like me. Other times it's just cryptic and seems like you're talking to yourself, so I felt like expressing some exasperation at that. That's it.

 

[butchersapron]

Some of your posts are educational and helpful to a compartive novice like me. Other times it's just cryptic and seems like you're talking to yourself, so I felt like expressing some exasperation at that. That's it.

I've posted. Feminism = way for rich women to get higher up the ladder. Tell me that's not what has happened. I don't support that. So what can i say as regards the OP?

 

[butchersapron]

Some of your posts are educational and helpful to a comparative novice like me. Other times it's just cryptic and seems like you're talking to yourself, so I felt like expressing some exasperation at that. That's it.

No worries. None of my posts are really difficult. The core is what does some one who is committed to the full flowering of bougeous law do when they don't like the content. Let it go and don't call yourself feminist.