Shopkeeper killed for not selling cigarette papers

[NoXion]

Tobacco



Blimey never knew this. Why do you need to be over 18 to buy paper? How is that a 'Tabacco Product' ?? This country

Now some bloke got murdered over it.

If people like that are liable to smack someone for not selling them papers, then they seem just as likely to smack someone for not selling them fags/baccy.

It does that way, yes. You're entirely right that all we know is that they were teenagers. But you yourself ventured a suspicion that they might have been looking for violence. Based on not much information. So yes that seems a lurch. If the story was reported with middle aged perpetrators we might assume come other characteristic but in the case of teenagers it's violence.

I'm sorry but I'm not sure what point you were making about the 40/50yr old comments. I was using the word vilify because we ascribe negative and dangerous attributes to teenagers in stories like this. if you object to the word vilify (I quite like it) then substitute for stereotype if you like.

I think people are saying that they were looking for violence on the basis that they ended up fatally punching someone, rather than on the basis of their age.

 

[ShiftyBagLady]

So, if the notion of vilifying the young is one that I catch the blame for ... Why?

Err, I haven't held you personally accountable. Didn't even quote your post. My post was a response to it, yes, but it's the same response I have every time there's a teenager in a headline like this

 

[Fez909]

Blimey never knew this. Why do you need to be over 18 to buy paper? How is that a 'Tabacco Product' ?? This country

Electronic cigarettes are clasified as tobacco products now. EU law made 'em do it (trufax).

So if you buy an e-cig, which contains no tobacco, and can be used even without nicotine (which still doesn't make it a tobacco product, but you're getting closer), you're buying a "tobacco product".

 

[Celyn]

Why do you need to be over 18 to buy paper?

What a sorry situation that some bloke got murdered over it.

It's weird, isn't it? This whole "discourage young people from smoking by making it difficult for them to buy cigs/tobacco/papers" *might*, for all I know, be of some long-term health benefit, but not for Mr. Patel. Hell, he was only 49.

There are other new-ish laws/rules similar to the cigarette/tobacco/papers ones, that are very bossy about what you can buy when you are of the right age - a few years ago, my niece starting first year architecture at univ bemoaned the fact that there were some crazy laws about whether she could buy certain things - useful little knives etc.

 

[skyscraper101]

I was once asked for ID in Woolworths buying party poppers. I was 20 years old at the time Not that it should matter even if I was half that age.

Didn't kill anyone either.

 

[NoXion]

Electronic cigarettes are clasified as tobacco products now. EU law made 'em do it (trufax).

So if you buy an e-cig, which contains no tobacco, and can be used even without nicotine (which still doesn't make it a tobacco product, but you're getting closer), you're buying a "tobacco product".

Another reason to say fuck the EU. The only reason I can think of that would make any sense for the EU to classify e-cigs the same as actual tobacco products, is because they got leaned on by the tobacco companies.

 

[Fez909]

It's weird, isn't it? This whole "discourage young people from smoking by making it difficult for them to buy cigs/tobacco/papers" *might*, for all I know, be of some long-term health benefit, but not for Mr. Patel. Hell, he was only 49.

There are other new-ish laws/rules similar to the cigarette/tobacco/papers ones, that are very bossy about what you can buy when you are of the right age - a few years ago, my niece starting first year architecture at univ bemoaned the fact that there were some crazy laws about whether she could buy certain things - useful little knives etc.

This kind of shit really pisses me off. If you have a law, then police the fucking law, don't move the goalposts because the law is difficult to enforce.

I went out in Manchester recently and didn't have photo ID to get in the club. They said go home and get it (I live in Leeds) Then they said show me a photo off your phone with passport etc (I didn't have a pic). Then "get your housemate to take a pic for you" (I live alone).

They made me stand in the rain for 30 minutes then reluctantly let me in.

Apparently this was to stop acid attacks. Quite how this would have worked is beyond me, but it's fucking ridiculous. I'm 35 and balding. I'm clearly old enough to get in. They near-enough strip searched me on the door anyway, so I didn't have an acid on me.

The irony is that this rule was brought in by Manchester council after a nearby club's bouncers were victims of an acid attack for not letting someone in.

 

[Celyn]

It does that way, yes. You're entirely right that all we know is that they were teenagers. But you yourself ventured a suspicion that they might have been looking for violence. Based on not much information. So yes that seems a lurch. If the story was reported with middle aged perpetrators we might assume come other characteristic but in the case of teenagers it's violence.

I'm sorry but I'm not sure what point you were making about the 40/50yr old comments. I was using the word vilify because we ascribe negative and dangerous attributes to teenagers in stories like this. if you object to the word vilify (I quite like it) then substitute for stereotype if you like.

Nope. I said I did not know whether the people were looking for rows and violence or not, or if this all kicked off by offering violence to the shopkeeper. If that is a "lurch", then it's the same "lurch" that I would would ascribe to any set of people who went to a local shop then threatened the shopkeeper.

"But you yourself ventured a suspicion that they might have been looking for violence. Based on not much information. So yes that seems a lurch. If the story was reported with middle aged perpetrators we might assume come other characteristic but in the case of teenagers it's violence.

No! Had the story involved "middle aged perpetrators", then I should have had exactly the same view.

 

[Yossarian]

Another reason to say fuck the EU. The only reason I can think of that would make any sense for the EU to classify e-cigs the same as actual tobacco products, is because they got leaned on by the tobacco companies.

They're a relatively new product, the aerosol can contain harmful substances, they're generally used to deliver an extremely addictive drug, and the long-term effects are totally unknown - classifying them the same as tobacco products make sense to me, and I'm neither a tobacco company executive nor a corrupt EU bureaucrat.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

You have to look 25, if you don't you need to provide ID. I worked for the co-op for a brief stint and I've been subjected to abuse ' its a fucking pack of papers ffs' etc. Some people I asked were close to 27! Even if you had asked someone once, everytime they came in you had to ask them again. Durham plod send people in all the time who are on the border of 25, so if I didn't ask for ID both me and the manager would get a hefty fine. It's bollocks.

Yet try to get anything out of them other than a crime reference number if your gaff gets turned over.

 

[Celyn]

I was once asked for ID in Woolworths buying party poppers. I was 20 years old at the time Not that it should matter even if I was half that age.

Didn't kill anyone either.

Are "party poppers" just those papery thingy whatsits? That are no immediate danger to anyone or anything? Not amyl? Presumably so, otherwise Woollies not sell, although might liven up the Pic'n'Mix quite a bit.

How very sad and fun though. At the age of 20, being asked for age proof by Woolworth's. I hope the fact that the Woollies staff considered you too young to buy party toys for toddlers has not blighted your life too much.

 

[skyscraper101]

Are "party poppers" just those papery thingy whatsits? That are no immediate danger to anyone or anything? Not amyl? Presumably so, otherwise Woollies not sell, although might liven up the Pic'n'Mix quite a bit.

How very sad and fun though. At the age of 20, being asked for age proof by Woolworth's. I hope the fact that the Woollies staff considered you too young to buy party toys for toddlers has not blighted your life too much.

Yeah party poppers aka the little plastic things with string for kids parties and so on.

not Amyl Nirate poppers

 

[NoXion]

They're a relatively new product, the aerosol can contain harmful substances,

Then regulate the ingredients. There are e-liquids available that contain nothing that hasn't already been used for decades in foods and medicines; the regulatory environment should definitely be shaped in favour of such formulations. Slapping an age limit on products does nothing to address problems such as dodgy build quality of e-cigs, nor does it deal with potentially harmful ingredients. Shouldn't adults be protected from that stuff as well?

they're generally used to deliver an extremely addictive drug,

So? E-liquids are dead cheap, shit like gum and patches are available if one can't vape, and the worst effects of nicotine withdrawal will make you cranky or possibly give you a cold. At the doses typically used, nicotine is not toxic to humans. The terrible health impact of smoking is down to the fact that you're inhaling smoke and tar, plus a cocktail of lovely substances like benzene, along with whatever radioactive isotopes the tobacco plant picked up from the soil or the atmopshere while it was growing.

Coffee and soft drinks are popular ways of imbibing another mild stimulant that is addictive. Should those products be age-restricted as well? After all, sleep disturbances, negative impacts on oral hygiene and potentially large spikes in blood sugar aren't exactly recommended by any doctors I'm aware of. What actually makes nicotine (not tobacco) different?

and the long-term effects are totally unknown - classifying them the same as tobacco products make sense to me, and I'm neither a tobacco company executive nor a corrupt EU bureaucrat.

It's typically water vapour with flavourings, nicotine and a vapourising agent, usually something like glycerol (discovered in 1779) or propylene glycol (can't find the date of discovery, but experiments with mice were being done with it back in 1972, with no negative results in terms of health impact for the subjects), chemicals which have a long history of use within food and medicine. There doesn't seem to be much room in the available data for vaping to have anywhere near the kind of public health impact that smoking has had.

 

[Sasaferrato]

I really hate this immediate lurch to vilify the young. I mean I know there is a harrowing surge in violence amongst youths and theres a real problem we need to address. It strikes me that we are reinforcing it all the time in this insidious demonisation of young people.
I make the point too elaborately but if these boys were middle aged men who punched the shopkeeper after the pub we wouldn't instinctively say 'they must have been looking for violence'. Well I don't think we would.

I think this is really sad. A man died. A boy became a killer.

Some of us were violent in our youth, but by middle age had seen the stupidity.

I've never known a placid kid grow into a violent man.

 

[Sasaferrato]

there were some really scary drug dealers coming on to the estate at that point - these dodgy looking middle aged guys in 4 or 5 expensive cars would more or less take over the area round the green outside our house, say on a sunday afternoon, and intimidate everyone - while customers would drive down, the transaction would happen, and they'd drive off again - all the time these guys were acting aggressively and loud with each other and playing extremely loud music. I called the police but they always miraculously drove away before the police arrived. Luckily that didn't go on for long. Made me appreciate our usual drug dealers who are relatively well behaved now though it took a while for them to get that way!

My man delivers. Mind you, I buy one or two ounces at a time, so it is worth his while.

 

[Yossarian]

Then regulate the ingredients. There are e-liquids available that contain nothing that hasn't already been used for decades in foods and medicines; the regulatory environment should definitely be shaped in favour of such formulations. Slapping an age limit on products does nothing to address problems such as dodgy build quality of e-cigs, nor does it deal with potentially harmful ingredients. Shouldn't adults be protected from that stuff as well?



So? E-liquids are dead cheap, shit like gum and patches are available if one can't vape, and the worst effects of nicotine withdrawal will make you cranky or possibly give you a cold. At the doses typically used, nicotine is not toxic to humans. The terrible health impact of smoking is down to the fact that you're inhaling smoke and tar, along with whatever radioactive isotopes the tobacco plant picked up from the soil or the atmopshere while it was growing.

Coffee and soft drinks are popular ways of imbibing another mild stimulant that is addictive. Should those products be age-restricted as well? After all, sleep disturbances, negative impacts on oral hygiene and potentially large spikes in blood sugar aren't exactly recommended by any doctors I'm aware of. What actually makes nicotine (not tobacco) different?

It's typically water vapour with flavourings, nicotine and a vapourising agent, usually something like glycerol (discovered in 1779) or propylene glycol (can't find the date of discovery, but experiments with mice were being done with it back in 1972, with no negative results in terms of health impact for the subjects), chemicals which have a long history of use within food and medicine. There doesn't seem to be much room in the available data for vaping to have anywhere near the kind of public health impact that smoking has had.

There are reasonable arguments on both sides of the debate, as far as I'm concerned - I'd be OK with selling them to under-18s as long as they had a note from their doctor saying they were trying to quit smoking.

Whether they prove to be safe or not, I reckon a lot of young vapers are going to end up as real smokers, so I'm fine with the age limit being kept in place and I respect shopkeepers who enforce it.

 

[Sasaferrato]

I was once asked for ID in Woolworths buying party poppers. I was 20 years old at the time Not that it should matter even if I was half that age.

Didn't kill anyone either.

There was a brand of tampons that were quite brightly coloured (may have been a German brand). My daughter, who was about four at the time saw them, and said 'Ooh party poppers'.

 

[NoXion]

There are reasonable arguments on both sides of the debate, as far as I'm concerned - I'd be OK with selling them to under-18s as long as they had a note from their doctor saying they were trying to quit smoking.

Whether they prove to be safe or not, I reckon a lot of young vapers are going to end up as real smokers, so I'm fine with the age limit being kept in place and I respect shopkeepers who enforce it.

What is your reckoning based on?

 

[squirrelp]

Tobacco

Blimey never knew this. Why do you need to be over 18 to buy paper? How is that a 'Tabacco Product' ?? This country

Now some bloke got murdered over it.

Cigarette papers are sold for the purpose of rolling tobacco.

 

[squirrelp]

Murder is a premeditated act.
Do the Telegraph have evidence of this premeditation?

They’re still cowardly cunts though even if it’s manslaughter rather than murder.

I think the use of the term 'unprovoked' here is intended to reflect the actions of the victim rather than the mens rea of the perpetrators.

 

[skyscraper101]

Cigarette papers are sold for the purpose of rolling tobacco.

Yet they are just thin pieces of paper at the end of the day and harmful to nobody.

 

[likesfish]

Got asked for id for shoe polish in my 40s. It was an automatic thing nobody in the store had any id why you needed id to by shoe polish but you do

 

[JimW]

Got asked for id for shoe polish in my 40s. It was an automatic thing nobody in the store had any id why you needed id to by shoe polish but you do

Didn't Fletcher brew some hooch with it once in an episode of Porridge?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Cigarette papers are sold for the purpose of rolling tobacco.

Not just for rolling tobacco though, they have many other uses, bombing MDMA, whizz etc.

 

[Sprocket.]

Got asked for id for shoe polish in my 40s. It was an automatic thing nobody in the store had any id why you needed id to by shoe polish but you do

You can get drunk from the alcohol in shoe polish apparently. An Afghan friend told me that Russian soldiers in Afghanistan used to spread it on toast to get drunk.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Then regulate the ingredients. There are e-liquids available that contain nothing that hasn't already been used for decades in foods and medicines; the regulatory environment should definitely be shaped in favour of such formulations. Slapping an age limit on products does nothing to address problems such as dodgy build quality of e-cigs, nor does it deal with potentially harmful ingredients. Shouldn't adults be protected from that stuff as well?



So? E-liquids are dead cheap, shit like gum and patches are available if one can't vape, and the worst effects of nicotine withdrawal will make you cranky or possibly give you a cold. At the doses typically used, nicotine is not toxic to humans. The terrible health impact of smoking is down to the fact that you're inhaling smoke and tar, plus a cocktail of lovely substances like benzene, along with whatever radioactive isotopes the tobacco plant picked up from the soil or the atmopshere while it was growing.

Coffee and soft drinks are popular ways of imbibing another mild stimulant that is addictive. Should those products be age-restricted as well? After all, sleep disturbances, negative impacts on oral hygiene and potentially large spikes in blood sugar aren't exactly recommended by any doctors I'm aware of. What actually makes nicotine (not tobacco) different?



It's typically water vapour with flavourings, nicotine and a vapourising agent, usually something like glycerol (discovered in 1779) or propylene glycol (can't find the date of discovery, but experiments with mice were being done with it back in 1972, with no negative results in terms of health impact for the subjects), chemicals which have a long history of use within food and medicine. There doesn't seem to be much room in the available data for vaping to have anywhere near the kind of public health impact that smoking has had.

After smoking for five decades, I stopped in seventeen days. No patches, just a reduction in fags to three a day, then a nicotine inhalator for a few days. It was the diagnosis of emphysema that prompted me to stop, I was already stopped when the lung cancer diagnosis came in.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Yet try to get anything out of them other than a crime reference number if your gaff gets turned over.

Aye, a number issued without anyone attending.

 

[crossthebreeze]

Got asked for id for shoe polish in my 40s. It was an automatic thing nobody in the store had any id why you needed id to by shoe polish but you do

It contains solvents. Lots of seemingly innocuous things - puncture repair kits, tippex, nail varnish remover, aerosols - are for over 18s only for the same reason. Then they do challenge 25 on anything restricted to over 18, then they do automatic random ids for anything restricted.

 

[Dogsauce]

I was once asked for ID in Woolworths buying party poppers. I was 20 years old at the time Not that it should matter even if I was half that age.

Didn't kill anyone either.

I love sniffing party poppers after they've been let off, love the smell. Don't think it gets you high though.

 

[Ralph Llama]

I hated it. I can understand 18 and asking for ID but 25! Local Asian shop got done for it. Lovely guy and constantly getting abuse off the local kids. Maybe he thought sod it and gave up asking.

I got asked for I.D. when I was buying a pack of skins when I was 35 Although I would like to put this down to my youthful looks, unfortunately, its all about `the man` who wants us all to carry I.D.