Shopkeeper killed for not selling cigarette papers

[cupid_stunt]

What has the world come too?

Shopkeeper dies after one punch from teens he refused to sell cigarette papers to

Police said he had been working on Saturday night when three teenage boys came in at around 11.30pm, trying to buy items including cigarette papers, which can only be sold to over-18s.

“Due to concerns about their age they were refused service after they were unable to provide suitable identification,” a spokesperson for the Metropolitan Police said.

I had no idea it was illegal to sell fag papers to under 18s, but how sad that someone has ended-up dead as a result.

 

[cupid_stunt]

How the fuck do you edit thread titles?

ETA: Sorted it.

ETA2: And, before seeing the posts below.

 

[Spymaster]

How the fuck do you edit thread titles?

Thread tools

 

[fishfinger]

How the fuck do you edit thread titles?

Is it under Thread Tools ^^^^^^^^^

 

[High Voltage]

Have you tried thread tools?

 

[High Voltage]

Thread title looks fine by the way, what would you want to change it to?

 

[dessiato]

Have a look attired tools at the top of the thread. You can edit the title there.

 

[Sasaferrato]

It is absolutely damnable, that a man has lost his life over such a trivial matter.

 

[Calamity1971]

I had no idea it was illegal to sell fag papers to under 18s, but how sad that someone has ended-up dead as a result. [/QUOTE]
You have to look 25, if you don't you need to provide ID. I worked for the co-op for a brief stint and I've been subjected to abuse ' its a fucking pack of papers ffs' etc. Some people I asked were close to 27! Even if you had asked someone once, everytime they came in you had to ask them again. Durham plod send people in all the time who are on the border of 25, so if I didn't ask for ID both me and the manager would get a hefty fine. It's bollocks. That poor man and his family
.

 

[Celyn]

I'm pleased that Durham plod are so much on top of things that they can devote all this attention to under-age baccy/papers customers. 25 for goodness sake! That must have been a right pain, Calamity1971, having to do the "require ID" thing when it's a customer that you see every week or so, and you *know*, but you have to do it anyway in case there be police. How bloody horrible that the bloke died for this.

I wonder if these teenagers were looking for violence anyway, or whether they actually were sufficiently annoyed to think attacking Mr. Patel just because of papers made sense. Poor sod. In an alternative universe, all would be much happier had these yobs got papers and gone home (or to the park or anything) for a nice mellow puff.

Surely if they had stopped to think, they might have come up with a great idea like "we'll go and see if Tom or Dick or Harry is at home and he'll give us some papers", or loiter outside and ask >=25 year-old person to buy papers for them, which I reckon a lot of people would, much more than would agree to a request to buy booze for them.

Or even just mooch around until observe some passers-by (at a bus stop or wherever) who are smoking and do a sort of

Young violent blokes:"sorry to bother you etc, but does anyone have some spare Rizla we could buy from you, please?"

Other person: Either "I've only got this one pack but I'll give you half of it" or "Ach, that's fine, you have those. I have a emergency spare pack at home".

There were three of them - they could all have gone on a quest - a capital letter Quest, like for the Holy Grail - in different directions, each seeking a few skins, but they killed a man who did them no harm.

 

[Sea Star]

The kids who go into the corner shop under us are constantly looking for trouble. They seem to have got over abusing me now but I've seen them giving the guys who run our local shop a really hard time. I wouldn't be surprised if this happened here. A couple of years ago they tried to stab a guy who was buying drugs from them - he was so scared he ran off and left his van behind with the door open.

 

[Gromit]

A shopkeeper has been murdered in an “unprovoked” attack

Murder is a premeditated act.
Do the Telegraph have evidence of this premeditation?

They’re still cowardly cunts though even if it’s manslaughter rather than murder.

 

[ShiftyBagLady]

I really hate this immediate lurch to vilify the young. I mean I know there is a harrowing surge in violence amongst youths and theres a real problem we need to address. It strikes me that we are reinforcing it all the time in this insidious demonisation of young people.
I make the point too elaborately but if these boys were middle aged men who punched the shopkeeper after the pub we wouldn't instinctively say 'they must have been looking for violence'. Well I don't think we would.

I think this is really sad. A man died. A boy became a killer.

 

[Gromit]

I really hate this immediate lurch to vilify the young. I mean I know there is a harrowing surge in violence amongst youths and theres a real problem we need to address. It strikes me that we are reinforcing it all the time in this insidious demonisation of young people.
I make the point too elaborately but if these boys were middle aged men who punched the shopkeeper after the pub we wouldn't instinctively say 'they must have been looking for violence'. Well I don't think we would.

I think this is really sad. A man died. A boy became a killer.

No we (by we I mean the media) would assume they were racists.

The media vilifies everyone. Why do yewths get a pass?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Murder is a premeditated act.

Not necessarily.

Although this case will go down to manslaughter as most one punch kills do, unless the killer really balls’s the interview.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Murder is a premeditated act.
Do the Telegraph have evidence of this premeditation?

They’re still cowardly cunts though even if it’s manslaughter rather than murder.

You don't need premeditation for murder in England.

 

[Gromit]

Not necessarily.

Although this case will go down to manslaughter as most one punch kills do, unless the killer really balls’s the interview.

Don’t make me quote the dictionary at you.

I know Americans have cold blooded vrs warm blooded murder definitions where the premeditation is kinda time sensitive but let’s be honest in this case it doesn’t appear that in a rage they wanted to beat him and beat him until he was dead. It was a one punch affair.

 

[Celyn]

The kids who go into the corner shop under us are constantly looking for trouble. They seem to have got over abusing me now but I've seen them giving the guys who run our local shop a really hard time. I wouldn't be surprised if this happened here. A couple of years ago they tried to stab a guy who was buying drugs from them - he was so scared he ran off and left his van behind with the door open.

Eek! Eek! and thrice Eek! Well, I'm very glad they have stopped abusing you, so that's something, at least.

But wherever is the joy of being nasty to the people who run the shops? Especially when, as you say, it's a local shop, which is a really useful thing to have.

A couple of years ago they tried to stab a guy who was buying drugs from them - he was so scared he ran off and left his van behind with the door open

They tried to stab a guy who was buying drugs from them? Well, that is an interesting way to do customer relations. I hope guy got home safe and they did not steal his van.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Don’t make me quote the dictionary at you.

No, please do get quoting. You state that murder can not be committed without premeditation, dig out yer quotes to back that up.

 

[Gromit]

No, please do get quoting. You state that murder can not be committed without premeditation, dig out yer quotes to back that up.

Well wiki contradicts itself. It states murder is killing with intent to kill and then goes on the explain that although it required neither malice nor premeditation.

When you click on premeditation it pretty much says premeditation is intent.

So murder is with intent but doesn’t need intent. Say what? Idiots.

The OED goes with:

1. The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

 

[Calamity1971]

This from a law website Gromit may prove your dictionary wrong.
In R v Vickers [1957] 2 QB 664, the Court of Appeal held that a defendant could be convicted of murder if it was established that he had intended to kill, or had intended grievous bodily harm. The latter was accepted as sufficient mens rea for murder because if a defendant was willing to inflict g.b.h., how was he to know that the victim might not die? An intention to cause g.b.h. at least evidenced a willingness to accept a substantial risk that the victim might die.
.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Well wiki... It states murder is killing with intent to kill...

That is very wrong too.

 

[Celyn]

I really hate this immediate lurch to vilify the young. I mean I know there is a harrowing surge in violence amongst youths and theres a real problem we need to address. It strikes me that we are reinforcing it all the time in this insidious demonisation of young people.
I make the point too elaborately but if these boys were middle aged men who punched the shopkeeper after the pub we wouldn't instinctively say 'they must have been looking for violence'. Well I don't think we would.

I think this is really sad. A man died. A boy became a killer.

I really hate this immediate lurch to vilify the young.

Is there such an immediate "lurch"? Really? It seems that the people involved here were teenagers of approx 16 years-ish. That is all we know so far. Now, had it been a report of three 40 or 50 year old women who killed this man, would commenting upon it amount to "vilifying" 40/50 year old women? Had it been 40 or 50 year old men, would commenting upon it equate to an "immediate lurch to vilify group X, where X is in fact the party who did do the bad thing?

 

[Calamity1971]

That must have been a right pain, Calamity1971,

I hated it. I can understand 18 and asking for ID but 25! Local Asian shop got done for it. Lovely guy and constantly getting abuse off the local kids. Maybe he thought sod it and gave up asking.

 

[Sea Star]

Eek! Eek! and thrice Eek! Well, I'm very glad they have stopped abusing you, so that's something, at least.

But wherever is the joy of being nasty to the people who run the shops? Especially when, as you say, it's a local shop, which is a really useful thing to have.



They tried to stab a guy who was buying drugs from them? Well, that is an interesting way to do customer relations. I hope guy got home safe and they did not steal his van.

boyfriend saw it happen - i just heard all the shouting while lying in bed. The van was still there next morning with the door open. Not sure how it was resolved.

 

[Celyn]

I really hate this immediate lurch to vilify the young. I mean I know there is a harrowing surge in violence amongst youths and theres a real problem we need to address. It strikes me that we are reinforcing it all the time in this insidious demonisation of young people.
I make the point too elaborately but if these boys were middle aged men who punched the shopkeeper after the pub we wouldn't instinctively say 'they must have been looking for violence'. Well I don't think we would.

I think this is really sad. A man died. A boy became a killer.

Yes, your last line is right, and horribly sad.

I really hate this immediate lurch to vilify the young. I mean I know there is a harrowing surge in violence amongst youths and theres a real problem we need to address. It strikes me that we are reinforcing it all the time in this insidious demonisation of young people.

But who is doing this "demonisation of young people"?

"I mean I know there is a harrowing surge in violence amongst youths and theres a real problem we need to address."

Well, you see, I didn't know there was a "harrowing surge in violence amongst youths and theres a real problem we need to address." So, if the notion of vilifying the young is one that I catch the blame for ... Why? Generally thought of it as another bloody pointless killing. Utterly horrible.

 

[Celyn]

boyfriend saw it happen - i just heard all the shouting while lying in bed. The van was still there next morning with the door open. Not sure how it was resolved.

Ah! And not knowing how it was resolved makes it extremely suitable as material should you ever want to go writing crime thriller novels or similar for telly. Or films! Could get very rich and famous. I started off joking, but come to think of it, that would be a rather good springboard for many plots.

Scary at the time though.

 

[skyscraper101]

Tobacco

• It is illegal to sell cigarettes or other forms of tobacco or tobacco products, including cigarette papers, to a person under 18 years.
• The above offence carries a £2,500 fine in a Magistrates' Court.

Blimey never knew this. Why do you need to be over 18 to buy paper? How is that a 'Tabacco Product' ?? This country

Now some bloke got murdered over it.

 

[Sea Star]

Ah! And not knowing how it was resolved makes it extremely suitable as material should you ever want to go writing crime thriller novels or similar for telly. Or films! Could get very rich and famous. I started off joking, but come to think of it, that would be a rather good springboard for many plots.

Scary at the time though.

there were some really scary drug dealers coming on to the estate at that point - these dodgy looking middle aged guys in 4 or 5 expensive cars would more or less take over the area round the green outside our house, say on a sunday afternoon, and intimidate everyone - while customers would drive down, the transaction would happen, and they'd drive off again - all the time these guys were acting aggressively and loud with each other and playing extremely loud music. I called the police but they always miraculously drove away before the police arrived. Luckily that didn't go on for long. Made me appreciate our usual drug dealers who are relatively well behaved now though it took a while for them to get that way!

 

[ShiftyBagLady]

Is there such an immediate "lurch"? Really? It seems that the people involved here were teenagers of approx 16 years-ish. That is all we know so far. Now, had it been a report of three 40 or 50 year old women who killed this man, would commenting upon it amount to "vilifying" 40/50 year old women? Had it been 40 or 50 year old men, would commenting upon it equate to an "immediate lurch to vilify group X, where X is in fact the party who did do the bad thing?

It does that way, yes. You're entirely right that all we know is that they were teenagers. But you yourself ventured a suspicion that they might have been looking for violence. Based on not much information. So yes that seems a lurch. If the story was reported with middle aged perpetrators we might assume come other characteristic but in the case of teenagers it's violence.

I'm sorry but I'm not sure what point you were making about the 40/50yr old comments. I was using the word vilify because we ascribe negative and dangerous attributes to teenagers in stories like this. if you object to the word vilify (I quite like it) then substitute for stereotype if you like.