Shayler - talk in Brixton - Wed. 2nd Nov.

[editor]

What do you think about those figures quoted in those polls then?

What percentage of the people in that poll believe the fantastic "invisible missile/planes/vanishing planes" drivel that gets posted here then?

And how many people voted? What were the questions?

And seeing as a similar amount of people believe in UFOs, why don't you believe in them too?

Or are the people only right when it suits your argument?

From your link:

9/11 Theologian Says Controlled Demolition of World Trade Center Is Now a Fact, Not a Theory

WTF has a Christian theologian's opinion got do with this?

 

[tarannau]

Purposely dishonest, blatantly distorted, wild drivel then.

Aye, and the jokeworthy thing is that one of the main complaints from conspiraloons is that the administration have misrepresented evidence and misled the public. Points like the worst of the conspiracy fans play hard and loose with any 'evidence' and research they find, showing scant respect for accuracy or the facts in hand.

I may think Bush and cronies are a pathetic bunch of shitehawks, but I'm certainly not aligning myself with a selectively myopic group of incompetent, hypocritical conspiraloons either, incapable of meeting the most basic standards of honesty and decent reporting.

Thanks for proving the point again Fela; another entirely worthwhile, well researched link...

 

[fela fan]

... people like them also exist in the US and they've provided the lazier end of media with the best excuse possible[i/] not to carry out serious in-depth examinations of the evidence or investigations of the official story.

The 'lazier' end? None of them have done any investigative work on the offical version, so far as i know. Certainly not over any period of time which is what would be needed.

Did 'people like them' also fuck up coverage over iraq? Or do you think it might have been people like aaronavitch or marr or the observer editor?

I've never seen you bother much with helping to redress what these people are doing to stop the official version being investigated. Why not have a go instead of deriding those that don't use the official butcersapron's methods in uncovering the rascals of the day?

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Aye, and the jokeworthy thing is that one of the main complaints from conspiraloons is that the administration have misrepresented evidence and misled the public. Points like the worst of the conspiracy fans play hard and loose with any 'evidence' and research they find, showing scant respect for accuracy or the facts in hand.

I may think Bush and cronies are a pathetic bunch of shitehawks, but I'm certainly not aligning myself with a selectively myopic group of incompetent, hypocritical conspiraloons either, incapable of meeting the most basic standards of honesty and decent reporting.

Thanks for proving the point again Fela; another entirely worthwhile, well researched link...

I sometime wonder if these people are being paid to go out there and confuse things…I don't believe in any of that ct shit but if I was a scumfucker in power it's exactly what i'd do to confuse and maintain control!

 

[butchersapron]

The 'lazier' end? None of them have done any investigative work on the offical version, so far as i know. Certainly not over any period of time which is what would be needed.

Did 'people like them' also fuck up coverage over iraq? Or do you think it might have been people like aaronavitch or marr or the observer editor?

I've never seen you bother much with helping to redress what these people are doing to stop the official version being investigated. Why not have a go instead of deriding those that don't use the official butcersapron's methods in uncovering the rascals of the day?

Right, you don't read counterpunch, zmag or various other US based investagative journals that have done some serious research? Therfore they don't exist. Such critical rigour on display once more.

 

[gurrier]

It talks about two surveys, so how can you talk about 'this survey finding'? Or are you succumbing to the very thing you accuse people of the 'conspiraloon attitude' towards research?

That link i just provided gurrier: is this one of your 'every single conspiraloon site'? How do we know what the gurrier conspiraloon site looks like, you know, just so that we can ignore it like?

1. I'm refering to the Zogby NY poll. I assume the findings of the Toronto Star are similarly distorted, but will happily admit my error if you can point me to the original source (I have looked but only been able to find the distorted reports such as the link above).

2. If you can provide me links to 9-11 campaign sites which accurately report the findings of the Zogby poll, I will take back my comment about 'every single conspiraloon site'. I can give you a long long list of sites which carry a distorted and dishonest account of the survey.

 

[fela fan]

Right, you don't read counterpunch, zmag or various other US based investagative journals that have done some serious research? Therfore they don't exist. Such critical rigour on display once more.

If i didn't spell it out fully then allow me to here mate: mainstream media.

You should know perfectly well how politics could shift quite dramatically if the USG's official version of events were investigated and found to be a pack of lies.

Perhaps fitzgerald may turn his sights on it after his current round of work. And if this current round is successful, then i think the political climate will be such that at least the new york press may shed their fears and go for it... leading to a great unstoppable momemtum.

as i've just read, in that city power is only the appearance of power. It can go quicker than a flick of fingers...

 

[fela fan]

1. I'm refering to the Zogby NY poll. I assume the findings of the Toronto Star are similarly distorted, but will happily admit my error if you can point me to the original source (I have looked but only been able to find the distorted reports such as the link above).

2. If you can provide me links to 9-11 campaign sites which accurately report the findings of the Zogby poll, I will take back my comment about 'every single conspiraloon site'. I can give you a long long list of sites which carry a distorted and dishonest account of the survey.

Like i said, i don't care for opinion polls in the main. Figures can be turned into any words any writer wants.

But i was just replying to the editor's post.

Why do you collect such long lists of sites about this topic?

 

[fela fan]

I don't believe in any of that ct shit but if I was a scumfucker in power it's exactly what i'd do to confuse and maintain control!

Heh, are you being deliberately funny? Are you arguing that that's NOT what they do now? Have you no appreciation for political games, media spin, and how and why the term 'conspiracy theorist' was born?

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Heh, are you being deliberately funny? Are you arguing that that's NOT what they do now? Have you no appreciation for political games, media spin, and how and why the term 'conspiracy theorist' was born?

Nope, my humour was entirely accidental.

 

[editor]

Like i said, i don't care for opinion polls in the main.?

But they suddenly become meaningful and worthy of mention here when you think they somehow support your conspiraloonery, yes?

I mean, why else would you be mentioning the polls in the first place?

 

[gurrier]

Like i said, i don't care for opinion polls in the main. Figures can be turned into any words any writer wants.

Nope, a clear and unambiguous question has been turned into a completely different conclusion. There is no manipulation of figures, just a blatant distortion of the findings.

Why do you collect such long lists of sites about this topic?

Because, unlike Loonspuds, I actually read and evaluate the evidence, do the sums, research the sources of material and formulate rational conclusions about 9-11.

That and the fact that I'm a lizard.

 

[Major Tom]

Ah. So you believe in UFOs then, yes?

How can you not believe in unidentified flying objects ?

If an object is seen in the sky which is not identified then its a UFO.

Clearly such things exist. even after extensive research - a small number of observed objects still remain unidentified.

Now, what those objects are is the subject of much debate. Only a tiny number of crackpots believe that they are aliens from space. Most prefer to go down the unknown natural phenonema or new air-craft being tested route before leaping to such a bizarre conculsion.

 

[Rob Ray]

Stop dribbling on your keyboard, fela. The mainstream media wouldn't go for the story even if it was true (which it isn't, it's conspiraloon bollocks) it's not worth their while.

Actually, why am I legitimising this crap? They don't go for the story because there's no truth in it. It would be so huge if there was anything untoward going on that it would have been picked up by the investigative names, but they haven't shown any interest whatsoever - because there's no hard evidence.

 

[gurrier]

How can you not believe in unidentified flying objects ?

I think the editor was using a short hand for "alien space ships which abduct dumb americans and perform experiments on them".

 

[fela fan]

Because, unlike Loonspuds, I actually read and evaluate the evidence, do the sums, research the sources of material and formulate rational conclusions about 9-11.

Well, at least we've got that clear then. Well done sir, sterling work.

Now, please confirm to me if i am one of your 'loonspuds'... coz if you've read and evaluated all i've said on this topic, done the sums, and concluded rationally, you'd realise that we belong in the same camp .

 

[fela fan]

Stop dribbling on your keyboard, fela.

You're doing that perfectly well yourself. Just look at the mess you made of that post.

And unless you've been reading urban before this year, then you have fuck all idea about what you're talking about. This year has only seen sporadic threads about 911 for institutional reasons.

Now be a good boy and stop insulting folk you've never ever talked with before.

 

[gurrier]

Now, please confirm to me if i am one of your 'loonspuds'... coz if you've read and evaluated all i've said on this topic, done the sums, and concluded rationally, you'd realise that we belong in the same camp .

You are planted slap bang in the middle of the loonspud section of the allotment. Your introduction of this distorted poll finding, followed by your dismissal of the importance of polls as evidence as soon as it was shown to be distorted is a good case in point of the characteristic traits of the species loonspudus conspiranoidicus.

 

[fela fan]

Nope, my humour was entirely accidental.

There was no humour even accidentally. I meant funny as in 'strange'. If you can't see this, then no worries.

 

[Rob Ray]

Oh please, I ain't just posted as Rob Ray y'know, I used to post under another name a while back, and I've read quite a lot of your stuff, and you're batantly mad as a spoon.

 

[fela fan]

But they suddenly become meaningful and worthy of mention here when you think they somehow support your conspiraloonery, yes?

I mean, why else would you be mentioning the polls in the first place?

I mean. It's disgraceful what's happening these days, i mean.

Just look at my post top of page 10 to see why i mentioned those polls. I mean, all you've got to do is read that short post to answer your own question.

Simple innit.

And even if we halve those numbers, even if we change the numbers around a bit, then that's substantially more people than on urban who suspect USG involvement in 911.

I mean, you've always told us how just about everyone here agrees with your position on the topic, and that there are only a handful of 'loonspuds'.

 

[fela fan]

Oh please, I ain't just posted as Rob Ray y'know, I used to post under another name a while back, and I've read quite a lot of your stuff, and you're batantly mad as a spoon.

Yeah, and blair's sane.

And if you change your fucking name, how do you expect me to know who you are?

 

[gurrier]

And even if we halve those numbers, even if we change the numbers around a bit, then that's substantially more people than on urban who suspect USG involvement in 911.

I mean, you've always told us how just about everyone here agrees with your position on the topic, and that there are only a handful of 'loonspuds'.

Nobody is arguing with the numbers. The argument is about the blatant distortion of the poll question. You have now introduced a new distortion ("USG involvement"). Loonspudus Conspiranoidicus is certainly a creature of habit.

 

[fela fan]

You are planted slap bang in the middle of the loonspud section of the allotment. Your introduction of this distorted poll finding, followed by your dismissal of the importance of polls as evidence as soon as it was shown to be distorted is a good case in point of the characteristic traits of the species loonspudus conspiranoidicus.

Well, lucky that that's settled then.

[yet another person who refuses to see, or can't see, the limitations of debating an oral medium by use of the written medium]

 

[FridgeMagnet]

an oral medium

And what would that be precisely?

 

[gurrier]

[yet another person who refuses to see, or can't see, the limitations of debating an oral medium by use of the written medium]

Not only can I not see this limitation, I don't have the slightest clue what this sentence means.

 

[TeeJay]

...recent conversations with one of their members tells me that they're simply buying into the same laughable, fact-free conspiraloonery shite that's been rightly laughed off these boards several times.

The views and beliefs of one member don't automatically represent the official national party line on anything.

I can't find any mention of 9/11 etc on the official website: http://www.greenparty.org.uk

 

[editor]

The views and beliefs of one member don't automatically represent the official national party line on anything.]

I'm only speaking from a local perspective and reflecting what I've heard people say when they see those "truth about 9/11" posters around Brixton.

Does the Green Party head office even know about this conspiraloon-dabbling?

 

[editor]

...I don't have the slightest clue what this sentence means.

You simply must be at fault here because fela has gone to some considerable lengths to repeatedly boast and brag about his fabulous "communication skills."

Either that or he's talking utter shit again.

 

[TeeJay]

The US Green Party only goes as far as mentioning these things:

...Greens charge that numerous other points went uninvestigated:

* The full extent of FBI and CIA surveillance and intelligence on the hijackers, some of whom (especially Mohammed Atta) had been closely monitored.

* Connections between the U.S., the Bush family, and Saudi Arabian officials; the Saudi ruling family's funding of terrorists (most of whom were Saudi Arabian); obstruction by the Clinton and Bush administrations of FBI investigations into Saudi ties to terrorism; connections between other U.S. allies and the hijackers, such as Pakistani Intelligence Service.

* The failure of FAA and NORAD to follow standard operating procedures in response to the 9/11 hijackings.

* The extent to which bad U.S. policy in the Middle East motivated (and continues to motivate) extremist groups like al-Qaeda, including mishandling of the Israel-Palestine crisis; attempts by the U.S. to control Middle Eastern oil resources (such as the proposed trans-Afghanistan pipeline); earlier U.S. assistance for the Mujahedeen in Afghanistan, and for tyrants such as Saddam Hussein.​

(from this link: http://www.gp.org/press/pr_04_28_04.html )

I can't see any invisible planes, missiles or explosive-rigged buildings there. None of these points necessarily implies conspiracy rather than screw-ups, corruption, a fucked-up foreign policy where human lives have less value than other factors and objectives - and an attempt to shift blame after the event.