butchersapron
Bring back hanging
No, i meant devolved.
Shayler - talk in Brixton - Wed. 2nd Nov.
- Thread starter TeeJay
- Start date
DaveCinzano
WATCH OUT, GEORGE, HE'S GOT A SCREWDRIVER!
i don't think fela exists. i think he's a made-up person, a spare log-in of the same person that calls themself 'wookey'. all the trademarks are there.
maomao said:
Perhaps coz two items don't constitute a 'list'.
Ah, here we go:
"Journalists usually omit the comma that separates the last two items in a series. In your college writing, however, you should always use a comma before the coordinating conjunction because the final comma eliminates the possibility of ambiguity."
Although in recent years i've seen journalists include that final comma.
And from the same source, an example to demonstrate why this comma is preferable:
"Ambiguous: The party was made special by the company, the light from the hundreds of twinkling candles and the excellent hors d'oeuvres. (Did the hors d'oeuvres give off light?)
Revised:The party was made special by the company, the light from the hundreds of twinkling candles, and the excellent hors d'oeuvres."
So to now answer your question mao, with only two items in a list, there can be no ambiguity.
[source was The Holt Handbook, 1999]
“Use a comma:
• To separate words in a list or series:
The baby likes grapes, bananas, and cantaloupe.”
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001605.html
“Yet punctuation is something more than a culture's birthmark: it scores the music in our minds, gets our thoughts moving to the rhythm of our hearts. Punctuation is the notation in the sheet music of our words, telling us when to rest, or when to raise our voices; it acknowledges that the meaning of our discourse, as of any symphonic composition, lies not in the units but in the pauses, the pacing and the phrasing.”
http://www.as.wvu.edu/~tmiles/grammar.html#praise
Click on the last of the links ‘In praise of the humble comma’
Ultimately rules are there to be broken by those who like doing so. One use of a comma never printed anywhere I’ve seen is as Pico Iyer alludes to here, is that it is the writer’s way of telling the reader where to pause. The writer can use it to provide the rhythm he/she wishes the reader to tune into.
Is language an art, or a science? Are you a descriptive grammarian or a prescriptive one?
NB mao: notice I separated a list of two with a comma there, and then I didn’t. I am guiding my readers into reading it the way I said it. Also notice how Iyer both follows rules and breaks them in the passage i quoted. He is using commas for a communicative function, one that is not listed in the rules of commas anywhere i've looked.
• To separate words in a list or series:
The baby likes grapes, bananas, and cantaloupe.”
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001605.html
“Yet punctuation is something more than a culture's birthmark: it scores the music in our minds, gets our thoughts moving to the rhythm of our hearts. Punctuation is the notation in the sheet music of our words, telling us when to rest, or when to raise our voices; it acknowledges that the meaning of our discourse, as of any symphonic composition, lies not in the units but in the pauses, the pacing and the phrasing.”
http://www.as.wvu.edu/~tmiles/grammar.html#praise
Click on the last of the links ‘In praise of the humble comma’
Ultimately rules are there to be broken by those who like doing so. One use of a comma never printed anywhere I’ve seen is as Pico Iyer alludes to here, is that it is the writer’s way of telling the reader where to pause. The writer can use it to provide the rhythm he/she wishes the reader to tune into.
Is language an art, or a science? Are you a descriptive grammarian or a prescriptive one?
NB mao: notice I separated a list of two with a comma there, and then I didn’t. I am guiding my readers into reading it the way I said it. Also notice how Iyer both follows rules and breaks them in the passage i quoted. He is using commas for a communicative function, one that is not listed in the rules of commas anywhere i've looked.
DaveCinzano
WATCH OUT, GEORGE, HE'S GOT A SCREWDRIVER!
...and yet you persist in calling maomao mao...
consistency, 'mate'
maomao
普費斯
fela fan said:
Perhaps coz two items don't constitute a 'list'.
http://www.google.com/search?q=defi...ient=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official
I used the big paper dictionary next to me aswell and I can't find a definition of list that excludes lists of two or even one object.
I also have a degree in linguistics, specialising in syntax and I can't for the life of me think of anything grammatically distinguishing a group of two nouns from a group of three nouns. Some languages would require an 'and' word between all the words whereas others get by with none at all.
The consensus seems to be that there are style guides recommending both but most publishers of books and newspapers prefer to leave the comma out. Given that I actually am a descriptive grammarian (by education if not by current employment) rather than a pissed expat TEFL teacher that thinks he's one I would personally recommend either excluding the comma, or including it always, even when the list consists of only two items. I don't care which you do but consistency is always the key to clear language.
maomao said:
Consistency is not always the key to clear language at all, unless one is a prescriptive grammarian. It is indeed impossible if one is a descriptive grammarian: the interlocutors change, as does the text type. Latin would certainly require consistency, and complete adherence to its rules. Living languages however change all the time.
Communicating in as unambiguous a way possible is the key to clear language. The speaker or the writer has control of the language that they're using, and it is incumbent upon them, assuming the cooperative principle is in action, to communicate their message accurately. If i mean a pause to happen between any two words, then i will insert a comma, regardless of the rules, but dependent on the genre.
Being anti-authoritarianism, i fit quite nicely into the descriptive grammarian grouping thank you.
Doubleplus at this ludicrous thread.brixtonvilla
should be Oslovilla, really
Nice to see this thread wasn't derailed off the important issues about Shayler in Brixton then...
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I bet you wish you could forget yours now. What's for me to forget?fela fan said:
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
What an odd post.
Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
fela fan said:
Nor is your refusal to properly address the serious questions I have raised about BS artist Shayler here & elsewhere. Not doing so makes your claim to be opposed to secret state malfeasance hilarious, at best.
Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
More BS
a blatant cheap attempt to drum up publicity--especially as the faker claims (in his varying & inconsistent accounts of 'plots' against him) that the protagonists have variously been Ulster Loyalists & MI6. Indeed, the lying bastard even claims MI5 do not do assassinations or have the facility to do such. That you & other conspiraloons post this kind of crap without ever answering any substantive point I have made about Shayler serves to show how far removed you are from having any sense of the secret state & how it operates, at least on this planet.
Jazzz said:
a blatant cheap attempt to drum up publicity--especially as the faker claims (in his varying & inconsistent accounts of 'plots' against him) that the protagonists have variously been Ulster Loyalists & MI6. Indeed, the lying bastard even claims MI5 do not do assassinations or have the facility to do such. That you & other conspiraloons post this kind of crap without ever answering any substantive point I have made about Shayler serves to show how far removed you are from having any sense of the secret state & how it operates, at least on this planet.
Read the indymedia thread http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=72620 where it emerges very clearly what a load of conspiralunacy bollocks this is.Jazzz said:
"Excuse me, sir, can I book a room? I'm going to need extra security because MI5 are going to assassinate my speaker though....."
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
hope springs!
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
I like the cut of that "Badman"'s gib.gurrier said:
editor said:
Care to step up to the plate and present the 'counter arguement'. I would love to see you try? Similarly Larry, if you reckon you can debunk the need for a fully independent inquiry, I'm sure space can be found on any 9/11 platform that David S is speaking at.
And Larry as an ardent supporter of the greens I expect you will know that it is not just people within Lambeth Greens that are calling for an independent inquiry but the US Green Party and recently Icelandic Green MP's.
editor
hiraethified
No thanks. I've got at least a thousand better things to do with my time.sparticus said:
Wow. Now there's an influential, important group!sparticus said:
The Greens are making total arses of themselves over this and recent conversations with one of their members tells me that they're simply buying into the same laughable, fact-free conspiraloonery shite that's been rightly laughed off these boards several times.
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