Scots indy results thread

[treelover]

Never said that. Plenty of people from England follow Scottish politics.

You might want us to be filthy nationalists for whatever reason, it is just not true.

Hopefully he will be getting a visit soon, that's not acceptable, even online.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I was against 'compulsory voting', but having seen the genuine engagement in this campaign, and also the colossal turnout, I've shifted my view. Perhaps if people had to vote, they would engage more with the political process. Who knows, Scotland might return a 'Real Conservative' government.

It doesn't matter if compulsory voting would 100% guarantee that everything would be sunshine and gravy from now until the end of time, that wouldn't change the fact that it would overstep the bounds of what a democratic state should be allowed to do. It would also be unenforceable, just like the legal requirements we already have to register to vote and fill in census forms.

I can only assume by 'real conservative' you mean a return the old fashioned 'borstals and bigotry' tory ethos of a couple of generations ago.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Australia has had some of the most right wing and ideological Gov'ts of all 'western' democracies, Howard for one, Now Abbot...

especially on benefits and immigration

If I was compelled to vote in an election which pitted Tony Abbot against Saddam Hussein I fear I would have to opt for the latter. This is what compulsory voting woud create, an artificial democractic mandate for the slightly-lesser of two evils. The best we can hope for in the UK with the current status quo is that turnouts drop low enough to discredit the whole system.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

I would say the first part is probably true, would not have done a few weeks ago. I would say that Scotland's independence movement is something of a national liberation and similar to any former colony of the UK. Mainly after seeing the way in which the establishment (particularly the broadcast/print media) and the rest of the country looks at Scottish people and our politics. Currently, I would say that people on the left should support that.

That comes across as quite an anti-English sentiment to be honest, and makes you look a bit paranoid and silly. Equating former colonies that the UK took over, often by force, with Scotland being part of the Union is just daft.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

Hopefully he will be getting a visit soon, that's not acceptable, even online.

Totally agree - that's well out of order.

 

[treelover]

Equating former colonies that the UK took over, often by force, with Scotland being part of the Union is just daft.

In the past maybe, but Culloden, the Clearances, etc, say otherwise.

 

[butchersapron]

In the past maybe, but Culloden, the Clearances, etc, say otherwise.

What were the clearances?

 

[treelover]

http://www.highlandclearances.co.uk/

though why you ask?

 

[butchersapron]

http://www.highlandclearances.co.uk/

though why you ask?

I suggest that you take a closer look at that resource and then come back and explain why the clearances were an english imposition on scotland and characteristic of classic colonies of empire - as per your post above. Just so we know that you're not just glibly parroting nationalist myths.

 

[DairyQueen]

That comes across as quite an anti-English sentiment to be honest, and makes you look a bit paranoid and silly. Equating former colonies that the UK took over, often by force, with Scotland being part of the Union is just daft.

Not my intention. However, I would not necessarily associated English people with colonialism, and they were often victims of exploitation. I would say that there were elements of coercion in the referendum campaign. True, there was not red coats in the street, but, then, again not all of Britain's conquests were through the barrel of a gun. I guess I consider Scotland in a similar situation to a place like Bermuda, although they do have more autonomy. I consider that a colony, and largely kept in 'the family of nations' through elements of coercion, and policies that are not always in the interests of the Bermudan people.

 

[DairyQueen]

I suggest that you take a closer look at that resource and then come back and explain why the clearances were an english imposition on scotland and characteristic of classic colonies of empire - as per your post above. Just so we know that you're not just glibly parroting nationalist myths.

I agree that it was not directly a result of British tyranny, but was largely the result of imposing 'British' law (or lowland Scots law) in Scotland. True, it was the Scottish ruling classes that were more than happy to implement the law, but I think it is simplistic and wrong to say the British government had their hands clean here.

 

[butchersapron]

I agree that it was not directly a result of British tyranny, but was largely the result of imposing British law in Scotland. True, it was the Scottish ruling classes that were more than happy to implement the law, but I think it is simplistic and wrong to say the British government had their hands clean here.

Who would ever suggest such a daft scenario though? Clearly it was a cross-nation pursuit of naked class interest. Such as happened with the english enclosures and the expulsion of millions from the land/agriculture in England. Who were the colonists there?

 

[DairyQueen]

You would be surprised how many people suggest such a scenario.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

Not my intention. However, I would not necessarily associated English people with colonialism, and they were often victims of exploitation. I would say that there were elements of coercion in the referendum campaign. True, there was not red coats in the street, but, then, again not all of Britain's conquests were through the barrel of a gun. I guess I consider Scotland in a similar situation to a place like Bermuda, although they do have more autonomy. I consider that a colony, and largely kept in 'the family of nations' through elements of coercion, and policies that are not always in the interests of the Bermudan people.

Fair enough, but you mentioned coercion here, so where did that come from and who did the coercing?

I ask because I'm genuinely curious as to why you take the position you do, and obviously don't agree that England is to blame for everything (although it's certainly not a paragon of virtue either).

I can't agree that Scotland's similar to Bermuda - it's not a tax haven and it certainly isn't hot and sunny!

 

[butchersapron]

Btw salmond seems to now be saying that the UK leaving the EU would be grounds for another referendum - so come on YES voters, get behind Cameron and the tories and support their 2015 election campaign in order to get that 2017 referendum.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

Btw salmond seems to now be saying that the UK leaving the EU would be grounds for another referendum - so come on YES voters, get behind Cameron and the tories and support their 2015 election campaign in order to get that 2017 referendum.

Somehow I can't see a sudden swing to the tories in Scotland!

 

[butchersapron]

Somehow I can't see a sudden swing to the tories in Scotland!

Nationalism makes for strange bedfellows - this chap might be angry enough to do something daft:

Willie Cameron, a yes voting businessman who owns the area's Cobbs hotel and cafe chain, agrees. "We are one of the most politically aware countries in the world. People have become very savvy and politics will never be the same."

"The Scots and the English are two completely different beings, two completely different psyches. The English are Anglo Saxons. The Scots are Celts. In my view they are as different as Arabs and Jews."

 

[JTG]

Genetically speaking, the English have more in common with a crab than with a Scotchman

 

[DairyQueen]

Fair enough, but you mentioned coercion here, so where did that come from and who did the coercing?

I ask because I'm genuinely curious as to why you take the position you do, and obviously don't agree that England is to blame for everything (although it's certainly not a paragon of virtue either).

I can't agree that Scotland's similar to Bermuda - it's not a tax haven and it certainly isn't hot and sunny!

I think there is an english establishment, that is not the same as English 'people', when you do not really vote for them. I think that this establishment is to blame for most social policy failures in the UK, and really beneath this surface of tolerance rhetoric, Britain can't really cope with genuine diversity of opinion and culture. Scots are, to them, white, christian and english-speaking so to many it is very difficult to grasp the idea that they are 'really' a minority.

butchersapron - the other side of the coin, is the Telegraph, and others dismissing, the notion of Scots and denigrating Scottish people. Martin Amis talking about Celtic hard-men and drunks. The whole 'Scots are sexists' stuff. There is undoubtedly a reaction to that. Scots are a minority in the UK, and so many do feel under threat. I don't defend the whole Celtic pride stuff, but I think it has to be seen in perspective. A lot of people are genuinely scared they are going to be repressed and that Scottish culture will not be allowed to develop.

 

[treelover]

Going by some of the tabloids, the Scots may be about to enter their pantheon of hate figures, well at least the ones in Glasgow or who are poor and voted yes.

 

[ska invita]

Going by some of the tabloids, the Scots may be about to enter their pantheon of hate figures, well at least the ones in Glasgow or who are poor and voted yes.

link?

 

[treelover]

"You've got to think with your head," agrees Ferguson. Things will change now anyway with devo max, he argues. Scotland will control its own destiny. "So why would you want to break up Britain, one of the greatest countries in the world?"

some no voters are clearly going to get a shock, when Westminster shafts them as it will

 

[treelover]

link?

Just the tone about how much public money they are getting, etc, it could harden, though there are sources just can't find them at moment.

 

[tony heath]

Salmond wants Scottish people to live in a world where they don't fight Tory rule from London and therefore encourages support of the Tories and Monarchy. We've seen it all before.

 

[what]

Does this tell us anything

 

[Quartz]

Does this tell us anything

Yes: Scotland wants to stay in the Union.

 

[newbie]

Hopefully he will be getting a visit soon, that's not acceptable, even online.

no it's not, and I have no idea why DairyQueen thought it necessary or reasonable to bring it into this thread in response to a post of mine. Should I take it as a threat, or is it simply intended as a really nasty insult? Either way, it's an appalling way to conduct a debate.

 

[DairyQueen]

no it's not, and I have no idea why DairyQueen thought it necessary or reasonable to bring it into this thread in response to a post of mine. Should I take it as a threat, or is it simply intended as a really nasty insult? Either way, it's an appalling way to conduct a debate.

You are whining about nationalism. At least in Scotland, it is obvious who the real old school nationalists have been in this debate.

 

[newbie]

what?

why did you post that remarkably nasty tweet at me?

 

[paolo]

Genetically speaking, the English have more in common with a crab than with a Scotchman

Makes me half crab then

Assuming you meant Scots. If not, I'm 100% crab, except certain evenings.