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Scots indy results thread

paolo -
God, that is hideous. Guardian spending money wisely I see.


I doubt it cost all that much. The rectangles version is an assault to the eyes though, agreed. You can learn most from the bars-formatted list of regional votes, I'd say. And the geographical one also tells you at least something. Even if unwelcome!
 
Seymour analysis
The Unionist side won, decisively, on a big turnout.

However, it did not win because it prevailed in the 'battle of ideas', such as it was. The utter cluelessness of the Unionists was apparent from day one. It was evident in the futile insistence of Scottish Labourites that "we are as Scottish as anyone else", as if anyone had ever queried it or - frankly - given much of a shit. It was evident in the little brainstorm Ed Miliband experienced toward the end of the campaign, whereupon he invited the English to wave the saltire, thus proving to the Scots that they are far better off in the company of UKIP-voting Clacton than living under the regime of that man off the television. And is still clear today when Scottish Labourites such as Douglas Alexander murmur with faux innocence about how dangerous it is that politicians - the Westminster elite, let us call them - are obviously held in such contempt. They have no ideas, and no idea.

The Unionist side won due to a combination of Project Fear and imperial nationalism. Neoliberal subjectivity, most aptly summarised in Thatcher's phrase "there is no alternative", is predicated on a particular computation of risk. If you try to buck the market, this calculus says, the market will punish you. Interest rates, house prices, jobs, all will go loopily out of sync. Stick with the unjust, perilous, insecure, savage and worsening regime you're stuck with, grin and bear austerity, hope for the best. This was the subtext of the 'risk' talk coming from the Bank of England, the business press, EU austerians, and the Westminster elite. Even the risible defence of the British welfare state, after decades of decimating it, contained the implicit codicil, "stick with the neoliberalised British version, because the Scandinavian welfare system you want is just a pipe dream".

The most interesting thing about nationalism in this debate is that the most belligerent nationalism of all was simply invisible to some. Unionists could stand in front of a sea of red, white and blue, and decry 'narrow Scottish nationalism', with no apparent sense of irony. They can drop the "two world wars" meme one minute, and deride national chauvinism the next. This, of course, is itself a record of the peculiar power of British nationalism. Whenever an ideology is so pervasive that it one inhabits it, lives in it, such that it is simply taken for granted - when it is, in a word, naturalised - that is when it has achieved the peak of its success. But there's something else. British nationalism is 'global', precisely because it is imperial. To have a British identity is, for many, to have access to the world. This is the sense in which Scottish nationalism is, by contrast, 'narrow'.

What is perhaps most contemptible and laughable in all of this is that a section of the Left is convinced that something precious and progressive was saved by the votes of Scotland's older and richer electorate. That precious something, apparently inconceivable across borders, is class solidarity. But in making this case, they have been compelled to play a remarkable game of forgetting. George Galloway forgets that his job is to expose and oppose Tory austerity rather than to pretend it's over. Gordon Brown forgets that he began the privatisation of the NHS, and poses as its stalwart defender. They will do all they can to forget about the bigoted, authoritarian and reactionary forces that have been prepared over a decade of 'Britishness' pedagogy, unleashed in the course of this campaign, and victoriously rioting in George Square yesterday - though they have no right to deny the role of such anti-democratic nationalism in securing their victory. And if they can, they will forget that the English chauvinism and ressentiment now vocalised by Farage and pandered to by Cameron, is the heart and soul of 'Britishness'.

It is fitting and appropriate, then, that in Gordon Brown, the 'No' lefties have found their ideal nemesis of narrow Scottish nationalism. For here is the famous champion of 'British vawl-yews', of 'British jobs for British workers', of pride in the empire. Here is a man who never shirked the bloody deeds necessary to Britain's continued global pertinence. Here is the chancellor who did more than any other to unleash the City of London, as the apex of 21st Century Britannia. Here, condensed in one man, is the central vice of Labourism: achieving everything one's apparent enemies would wish to achieve, only better. How right that Labour Unionists are creaming themselves with adoration over this tragic figure.

But to see him extolled as a champion of the welfare state, public services and social solidarity! Even I, with my perverse predilection for the darkest ironies, find that a bit much. He is capable and might well be able to win Scotland for Labour, particularly now that Salmond has stepped down. But if he does so, it will be in the name of austerity, privatization and decades of social wreckage that will make Thatcherism seem like a dewy-eyed dream.

Still. At least it can never be said of the British Left that it is inhibited by vulgar sentimentality.
 
This one's instructive too.

indyref_life_expectancy.jpg
:( 'sake. Given how many funerals I have been to for folk in their 50s and 60s I suppose its no surprise.
 
The SNP are claiming 10 000 new members over the weekend. As I know a couple of folk who have joined up it may even be true. That would put them around 35 000. The greens are also (allegedly) claiming more than 1000.
 
tbf lbj it was a national campaign not a local class one in that it involved convincing bosses as much as workers - thats realpolitik to win independence - the class struggle here wasnt within the country but between scotland and the english establishment. once independence is won the focus of class struggle reframes to within the new border

dunno ..... but I thought that the argument was totally between Scots ...... perhaps urban central and rural highlands and islands
 
"The Unionist side won, decisively" - wrong in the first sentence. dot you're better than this :(

It's true a 10% margin on a massive turnout it's a big win for the unionists. And it's essential to understand that to know why it will be pretty difficult for any type of left progressive change
 
its not my analysis! its from Lenins Tomb


Don't think Seymour's dissection of why the No vote was as higher-than-predicted as it was, cuts enough ice for me. Some pretty good and interesting points/insights in there, but he's leaving out far too many seriously relevant reasons for it, IMO.
 
dunno ..... but I thought that the argument was totally between Scots ...... perhaps urban central and rural highlands and islands
It's not easy to cut it that way either. Edinburgh voted 61-39 No-Yes for example. And although Eilean Siar as a whole voted No, Skye voted Yes.
 
Where's that info from weepiper? Have they got any other more detailed breakdowns by area?
From ballot box sampling carried out by the local Yes campaigners. I've read (from a Herald journalist on twitter) that every constituency in Glasgow returned a Yes majority. Unfortunately not every council count collated the figures this way, the information doesn't seem to be available for Edinburgh for example (although I would bet good money that Cramond, Barnton and the Grange voted No and Muirhouse, Niddrie and Leith voted Yes)

Edited because I got my fucking Yesses and Nos the wrong way round FFS :facepalm:
 
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From ballot box sampling carried out by the local Yes campaigners. I've read (from a Herald journalist on twitter) that every constituency in Glasgow returned a Yes majority. Unfortunately not every council count collated the figures this way, the information doesn't seem to be available for Edinburgh for example (although I would bet good money that Cramond, Barnton and the Grange voted Yes and Muirhouse, Niddrie and Leith voted No)
Ta
 
It's a shame you feel that way. The other day I spoke to my dad, Dundonian, SNP member since 1956 and yes voter, and he said 'Nothing can split us up. We are still friends, still neighbours. I'll still buy British, take holidays in England.' Your fears don't relate to anything the other yes voters in Dundee I know have expressed.

I really hope it is still that way, I was only 18 when I lived there and a group of guys a couple of years older than me took me under their wing and looked after me, I've never forgotten that. They saw me off at the Station when I had to return to London and got me smashed, I slept the whole journey. :)

One of the other things I remember was when we went out to clubs and I'd be dancing on my own and they looked at me as if I was nuts, they then pointed out to me I might get into trouble with people thinking I was gay as I should really be dancing with a girl and not on my own, they soon changed their views when I caught the eye from some pretty girl they were all drooling over, suddenly they were all throwing moves on the dance floor, it was hilarious... 1978 fuck me life was very different then...
 
Seriously? you've just backed a doomed Salmond ego campaign that cost the tax payer fucking millions, and you're giving the Guardian grief about wasting money?


a legitimate refferendum question democratically voted for and carried out under the rules such as they are. We should just scrap all elections, all notions of plebscite entirely. Cos gabi thinks its a waste of money.
 
I don't pay tax in the UK anymore. If I did I'd be furious. A complete and utter waste of everybody's time and money.

Did you ever think the Scottish people wanted to be independent? Seriously?
 
near half the voting population voted yes, it was quite close. So it reall depends on which 'the scottish people' you are talking about doesn't it? Unless you're so dumb you think that a 60-40 result really amounts to a unified and emphatic voice.
 
Of those who could be bothered to vote .....

1 in 4 in Glasgow ....for example.... couldn't be arsed....!

Around 34% actively wanted yes .... Taking into consideration the non arsed and the even less arsed 3% ........not even bothered to register .....

That arse does look fairly big in this !

As for the cost...surely worth every penny... south of the border for the unmitigated political panic caused to all parties in Westminster ...and the coming democratic fallout even though its a no ...
 
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Seriously? you've just backed a doomed Salmond ego campaign that cost the tax payer fucking millions, and you're giving the Guardian grief about wasting money?

Don't worry gabi, we will stop discussing Scotland's future soon enough and get back to what's important. Spending billions on military equipment, other vanity projects, kickbacks to the Eton crew, and London's infrastructure. We can then get back to what is really important in all of this, complaining about having to 'subsidise' rural Romanian peasants through the European Union, or just complaining about Romanians.
 
Of those who could be bothered to vote .....

1 in 4 in Glasgow ....for example.... couldn't be arsed....!

Around 34% actively wanted yes .... Taking into consideration the non arsed and the even less arsed 3% ........not even bothered to register .....

That arse does look fairly big in this !

What an idiotic comment. Only 46% voted no. Now the silent majority will work together for the UK? Not even a majority wants to stay in the United Kingdom. Subtract the "old, rich probably a bit racist" vote, and you are probably looking at some rather embarrassingly low number of votes.
 
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