Scots indy results thread

[DotCommunist]

just call it gerrymandering, thats what it is

 

[butchersapron]

They're gone. There is no time or support.

 

[articul8]

They're gone. There is no time or support.

they could come back post 2015

 

[Cpatain Rbubish]

I think the whole fucking UK should seek devolution from Westminster IMHO.

 

[Quartz]

Well, one of the sillier complaints of the independence campaign was that Westminster was over 400 miles away, so perhaps moving Parliament to Liverpool might be an idea.

 

[Cpatain Rbubish]

A while back on this thread, someone mentioned the devolved powers of the individual states in the united states.

OK, so how fucked up is this...


Some of the Silicon Valley super rich are trying to make that area a devolved mini state to facilitate them not having to share the burden of the tax deficit of California. Fuck the rest the we're all-right jack in extremis!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

A while back on this thread, someone mentioned the devolved powers of the individual states in the united states.

OK, so how fucked up is this...


Some of the Silicon Valley super rich are trying to make that area a devolved mini state to facilitate them not having to share the burden of the tax deficit of California. Fuck the rest the we're all-right jack in extremis!

That was me. I was not advocating a US-style system, merely pointing out the possibility of devolution within a wider polity. You might want to look at the post I was replying to to understand why I gave that example.

 

[Cpatain Rbubish]

That was me. I was not advocating a US-style system, merely pointing out the possibility of devolution within a wider polity. You might want to look at the post I was replying to to understand why I gave that example.

It wasn't a direct response to your post, just a little fucked up nugget of info I thought I'd share. Sorry for any confusion.

 

[toggle]

That was me. I was not advocating a US-style system, merely pointing out the possibility of devolution within a wider polity. You might want to look at the post I was replying to to understand why I gave that example.

the problem with arrangements that devolve power is that the central authority then tends to find ways to undermine local power structures and reserve power to itself. usually completely forgetting and hence recreating the problems that led to devolved power in the first place.

the most blindingly obvious example is that we are now looking at the need for devolution of the constituent nations and possibly english regional devolution. a major part of this being a response to successive governments hobbling county councils and the power structures at that level.

as an aside, these were created by the tory government that was formed as a result of the failure of the first attempt to legislate home rule for ireland. significantly, to try to undermine calls for irish home rule. by allowing greater local control and it was hoped, to remove the worst excesses of bad government in ireland. the house of commons voted for irish home rule 3 years later. it took about 20 more years to get that past the lords and another 7 years to actually achieve dominion status for Ireland. i think any measures forwarded now are similarly, delaying the inevitable.

 

[newbie]

what outcome can possibly be seen, from here and now, as inevitable?

 

[danny la rouge]

Death and taxes.

 

[where to]

They're gone. There is no time or support.

Looked straight from Lynton Crosby's playbook to me. I expect it to rumble on.

 

[Dillinger4]

 

[littlebabyjesus]

the problem with arrangements that devolve power is that the central authority then tends to find ways to undermine local power structures and reserve power to itself. usually completely forgetting and hence recreating the problems that led to devolved power in the first place.

the most blindingly obvious example is that we are now looking at the need for devolution of the constituent nations and possibly english regional devolution. a major part of this being a response to successive governments hobbling county councils and the power structures at that level.

as an aside, these were created by the tory government that was formed as a result of the failure of the first attempt to legislate home rule for ireland. significantly, to try to undermine calls for irish home rule. by allowing greater local control and it was hoped, to remove the worst excesses of bad government in ireland. the house of commons voted for irish home rule 3 years later. it took about 20 more years to get that past the lords and another 7 years to actually achieve dominion status for Ireland. i think any measures forwarded now are similarly, delaying the inevitable.

I agree completely with the first two paragraphs. And it will ever be thus - the level of the nation state is the level at which armies are controlled - they have the monopoly on ultimate violence, and that central power will always be in a strong position to gather power to itself. That's a tension between centre and periphery that has existed for as long as nation states have existed. We will always need to find ways to battle against it.

I'm not sure how far parallels with Ireland can go. One big difference I can think of is that Ireland had been subdued by the English/British for centuries and land was owned substantially by absentee landlords. The Irish had good reason to consider themselves as having been colonised by the British by force. That's a very different dynamic from the one that brought about union between Scotland and England.

 

[treelover]

That's a very good poster

 

[treelover]

There's something to the "five stages of grief" observation. I feel it, and I see it in many of my friends. Our dream of having a country of our own, a country where we could prevent fracking, and new nuclear power stations, and preserve the NHS as a public body, and remove WMDs from our soil, and tackle child poverty and urban deprivation, and give our elderly better pensions, and not destroy lives in the Middle East, that has been shattered.
By the Labour party, acting as the loyal lieutenants of the Conservative party.
The Edinburgh agreement was trashed. Cameron refused to debate with Salmond, but hawked himself around foreign governments and celebrities and banks and big business, desperate to recruit as many talking heads as possible to threaten Scotland with destruction or schmooze it to bits, depending. The BBC was happy to amplify any scare story, or positive snippet for the No campaign, but refused to give any publicity to good news for Yes, even going so far as to refuse to report people complaining they'd been misquoted.
For months, I felt like a victim of domestic abuse. I was being metaphorically battered by what was coming over the airwaves. In the last two weeks it was like being on the wrong end of a seal clubbing. And still the opinion polls crept upwards for Yes. I remarked that if Scotland did vote Yes in the face of the barrage of terror, it would be an act of extraordinary bravery. I think that was about the time we were being told queues would be forming at the banks as people rushed to withdraw all their money, if a Yes was announced on the 19th.
It took the ultimate lie, to swing the vote to No. The fabled devo-max, which Cameron refused to allow on the ballot paper, was resurrected. Sort of. By this time, nobody seemed to remember the torrents of scorn heaped on that idea two years ago. Salmond's consolation prize, they called it. He mustn't have it. Losers should lose.
That seemed to be forgotten. Suddenly, No meant devo-max! Or did it? The No campaign's loyal BBC acolytes dutifully called it that and said we were assured of it. The politicians' words varied. One minute we'd almost have federalism, then perhaps it was only a timetable to implement the minimal powers already in the pipeline.
Whatever it was, it worked. Postal voters started saying they'd have voted No if they'd known that would bring dev-max. An electorate battered by years of scare stories, capitulated. Or a few hundred thousand of them did, anyway.
In the end, the young and middle-aged voted Yes regardless. The No majority was swung by the scared elderly, many of whom had been told that their state pensions would stop if there was a Yes majority. (Did any news outlet ever report that this was a categoical lie?) But we lost our country nevertheless.
And within a few days we find that fracking will go ahead under our homes, and the NHS is under threat after all, and mortgages will rise in any case, and we're going to war in the Middle East, and devo-max - we can whistle for it.
So is it any wonder some people really do feel genuine grief? And what do Labour supporters do? They jeer.
But we know we've lost a battle, not the war. The big dark pit of despair turned out to have a trampoline on the bottom of it.

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...scotland-dying-does-anyone-care?commentpage=1

A really good post on CIf in response to a good piece by Kevin McKenna(who appears to be a socialist despite being Editor in Chief of the Scottish Daily Mail)

 

[Sue]

I like this bit:

'The most troubling question that may be asked about Murphy’s tour is this one: you’ve been a Labour MP for 15 years, Jim, so why didn’t you ever get up off your arse during that time to conduct a tour of 100 towns to highlight urban deprivation and social inequality? You waited far too long to show you cared about anything beyond your career and, when you finally did, you chose the wrong subject to get all passionate about: the British state.'

 

[treelover]

Murphy was instrumental in introducing Employment Support Allowance and abolishing Incapacity Benefit

oh, and as NUS president facilitated the NUS bending over to accept student loans.

 

[treelover]

Can the no voters please enlighten on the following: What extra powers is Scotland to receive, just an idea please? When will it happen? Why are Camerons mps trying to do away with the Barnett formula? Why did bbc report yesterday that Scotland will have oil for decades yet two weeks before said it was running out? Why did I receive a no campaign leaflet telling me food prices would rise and state pensions weren't protected? Why has media not reported on the possible fraud case thats going to judicial review? Why is Scotland no longer on the news atall. Where did Gordon Brown go? Why is labour cutting child support etc etc feeling silly yet?

posted on the 45 FB site

 

[gosub]

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...scotland-dying-does-anyone-care?commentpage=1

A really good post on CIf in response to a good piece by Kevin McKenna(who appears to be a socialist despite being Editor in Chief of the Scottish Daily Mail)

"Ed Miliband will require all of his 41 Scottish Labour MPs to be returned if he is to have any hope of winning an overall majority at Westminster next year. Yet how many of them would survive a backlash from among the 1.6 million who voted yes and who have effectively renounced the Labour faith?"


I would say most Labour seats could survive a hollowing out, SNP will pick up most Lib Dem votes this time around. Its 2020 Labour has to worry about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_United_Kingdom_general_election_results_in_Scotland

 

[Cpatain Rbubish]

Well, one of the sillier complaints of the independence campaign was that Westminster was over 400 miles away, so perhaps moving Parliament to Liverpool might be an idea.

Whilst the joke upfront sounds like it's a geographical one one it wasn't meant as such. True it's funny to me that Scotland expressed it's desire not to be ruled from Westminster (not the Indy win but only a 10-15% swing needed) at the same time as a considerable number of UK MPs/parties are trying to gain power back from Brussels.

Perhaps I find it funnier because I don't care that much. The number of all MPs that I consider to be true to their political beliefs (on all sides) is sadly diminishing. Now it's just about populist, blow with the wind bollocks on all sides. In my lifetime I've witnessed the electorate voting in disgusting right wing parliaments and seen the labour movement usurped by cunts who wouldn't know a days work, or the working classes lot if it bit them. One day I hope it does but somehow I doubt it. Our democracy is becoming the joke of choice as it has been in living memory in the US. SO MUCH MUCH TO CHOOSE BUT FUCK ALL CHOICE. When everyone fights for the centre ground in the UK we are all the the political poorer.

Choice becomes a case not of conviction politics, but that of voting for the least worst cunts. I never thought I'd say this but I doubt I'll vote again ever, they are (nearly all) all self serving cunts and it would make me sick t cast a ballot for any of them. Sad days indeed.

 

[Quartz]

The number of all MPs that I consider to be true to their political beliefs (on all sides) is sadly diminishing.

QFT.

 

[redsquirrel]

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...scotland-dying-does-anyone-care?commentpage=1

A really good post on CIf in response to a good piece by Kevin McKenna(who appears to be a socialist despite being Editor in Chief of the Scottish Daily Mail)

That's a terrible shit post, it's more of the a vote for NO = a vote for Austerity/Tories crap, as well as more elderly "sheeple" bashing. His/her "dream" was a ridiculous fantasy, even if YES had won neo-liberalism was still going to be the name of the game, governments were still going to use an austerity agenda to drive their attacks on the working-class.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That's a terrible shit post, it's more of the a vote for NO = a vote for Austerity/Tories crap, as well as more elderly "sheeple" bashing. His/her "dream" was a ridiculous fantasy, even if YES had won neo-liberalism was still going to be the name of the game, governments were still going to use an austerity agenda to drive their attacks on the working-class.

All this stuff is shit. NO = everything bad. YES = everything good that could have been. Including oil money being shared among fewer people. This 'it's Scottish oil' stuff sticks most in my craw. It's narrow-minded nationalism at its worst.

 

[brogdale]

0m ago16:11

Christopher Chope, a Conservative, says the “vow” offered to Scotland by David Cameron and other party leaders was never approved by parliament.

Light's blue touch paper and retires.....

 

[DotCommunist]

colour me astonished

 

[Tankus]

Milibands going to have changes imposed on him ........not make them ...

Salmonds smirk in his confirmation of a run into Aberdeen just confirms Milibands increasing inconsequence in directing labours future.