farmerbarleymow
I'm Petee's spirit animal
It's impossible to see that in the picture, at least on my phone, so apologies if I missed that.
Scots indy results thread
- Thread starter DotCommunist
- Start date
But there are shipyards on the south coast.
farmerbarleymow
I'm Petee's spirit animal
It was a joke.
Hang them mate. Hang them twice.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Oh fuck off, if we can't discuss or mention some of the tactical mistakes made by the YES campaign how are we ever going to learn from those mistakes. Or you could just go an stick your head in the sand and blame it all on the Daily Mail brainwashing old ladies.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
The number of 'informal' ballots is probably higher (but still pretty low ~5%) but that could equally be down to the fact that the ballot papers are more complex.
DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
... or YOU can accept that convincing the Scottish population to vote for independence won't happen in two years, and that to achieve 45% of the vote considering the massive institutional prejudice (the press being the most obvious) the campaign overrall was an achievement. Scots are only now grasping these issues, and how we want to be governed, our politics will be formed over time. I think there is more positives that we, as a country, can take from this campaign. It was people power like I have never seen. The state hates us, and will be unwilling to change anything.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
ah, 'we as a country'. Not a nationalist argument. Not at all.
Not we as a class. But we as a country. A vertical division of the people, not a horizontal one. Bosses and workers united.
Not we as a class. But we as a country. A vertical division of the people, not a horizontal one. Bosses and workers united.
Sorry. It's late and I'm tired. And presently off to bed.
DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
I consider myself Scottish and campaign here. I have comrades all over the place and campaign in other countries.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
In that case, what is this 'we, as a country'? Who does it include? why is it useful?
There have been movements of national liberation across the world over the last 60 years. This is not one of those. And clothing yourself in the language of those movements is insulting.
Last edited:
The positivity and belief within the campaign was no mistake. It was its greatest strength.
And this hasn't been a discussion of tactical mistakes, but whether weepiper should (be allowed?) to use twitter as a source. As I said before, i may have missed some context. I've not been on the boards for a while.
DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
What? Scotland has a political culture that I feel part of, so it includes anyone part of that culture. I don't know what you are insinuating. I feel solidarity with all sorts of groups across the world in similar and not so similar political environments. Not sure that has much use. I would like to think that people like you, in England, could take positives from this campaign too. You know, work together to help bring radical change to our shared political environment. I am sure that would have some use. I just feel nothing but hostility.
ska invita
back on the other side
tbf lbj it was a national campaign not a local class one in that it involved convincing bosses as much as workers - thats realpolitik to win independence - the class struggle here wasnt within the country but between scotland and the english establishment. once independence is won the focus of class struggle reframes to within the new border
8ball
#notallwomenz
Actually once won the struggle would have been to turn the independence movement into something truly progressive. There was no class struggle on the SNP agenda.
ska invita
back on the other side
yeah thats what i meant but said badly
farmerbarleymow
I'm Petee's spirit animal
It's not a question of what sources anyone is 'allowed' to use, but rather how reliable those sources are. Anyone can cite whichever source they like, but that source will rightly be questioned if it appears lacking.
Twitter is, at best, unreliable, as people can post whatever they like, truthful or otherwise, and there is little way of verifying whether they are who they say they are. Lots of people regret which way they voted in an election for various reasons, but that doesn't really tell us anything beyond that they regretted it. Likewise, there will inevitably be people who voted Yes that regretted doing so.
newbie
undisambiguated
why? a unions job is to promote solidarity amongst all its members. Have these people really bitten the poisoned apple of cross class nationalism to the extent they no longer need/want/feel solidarity with English workers? Where will their workplace representation come from, some sort of Scottish only union?
We've been assured, over and over, that what was under discussion was some sort of 'civic nationalism', different quantitatively, qualitatively, emotionally and practically from the well worn nationalism that I thought virtually everyone on the left rejected completely. Is one of the outcomes of this that unhappy yes voters are now thinking in terms of Us and Them, Insiders and Outsiders based on some overarching sense of national identity?
Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
There were very few. IRRC, no count topped 100 spoilt papers.
DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
What a load of bollocks. She disane like one union, and you are accusing her of 'well worn nationalism' that "everyone on the left rejected completely".
Maybe USDAW's members no longer feel that it is a vehicle that can provide a platform for working-class unity if they are affiliated to a political party that doesn't support strikes, and will campaign with them even if it is against the interests off their members.
It is amazing that apart from maybe two or three posters, we are getting a load of drivel about how bloody pious our British left is (which seems to consist of Owen Jones and a bunch of 80 year old men). We then get the ol' "you're a nationalist" insults after being under seige from state power for months. I certainly believe two different narratives are forming in this country, and the British one is far more sinister. A very right-wing nationalist movement that thinks of itself as 'above nationalism'.
newbie
undisambiguated
down tiger, I'm not shooting any messengers but I see no problem in seeking clarification.
and that changed overnight with the result? Are you in a position to decide what's in the interests of all USDAW members, or is their NEC?
I get you're disappointed, and on a comedown, but do you really think lashing out at all and sundry is big or clever? There's nothing remotely 'nationalist' in what I said, just the opposite, or right wing, so what's the point in painting it like that?
DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
Are you a member/voter of the Labour Party? You're not from Scotland, you are replaying tired, old Labour arguments that have been made for years. It was deeply hypocritical when they made them, and you repeating them is a little more pathetic. I would describe what you're doing as condescending, and - at the very least - it is pretty clear you have not really followed Scottish politics, but feel the need to make crass, ill-informed judgements. No comedown mate.
Some people think USDAW's conduct in the referendum campaign was wrong. I would not join them, they probably do fuck all anyway. So what?
DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
Never said that. Plenty of people from England follow Scottish politics.
You might want us to be filthy nationalists for whatever reason, it is just not true.
You might want us to be filthy nationalists for whatever reason, it is just not true.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I don't know about the 'British' narrative's nationalism, but here you are close to characterising Scottish nationalism as a movement of national liberation, akin to those of the British empire's ex-colonies.
You also seem to think that people who are truly of the left must have voted 'yes', that a 'no' vote could only mean being reactionary and r/w, that good people only voted 'no' by mistake or because they were duped.
I don't think that narrative works.
newbie
undisambiguated
Never said that. Plenty of people from England follow Scottish politics.
You might want us to be filthy nationalists for whatever reason, it is just not true.
why on earth have you chosen to direct that tweet at me?
DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
I would say the first part is probably true, would not have done a few weeks ago. I would say that Scotland's independence movement is something of a national liberation and similar to any former colony of the UK. Mainly after seeing the way in which the establishment (particularly the broadcast/print media) and the rest of the country looks at Scottish people and our politics. Currently, I would say that people on the left should support that.
It has been widely reported that there has been a surge in SNP, Green and SSP membership. I don't find that hard to believe. A lot of people were out campaigning, and really do think independence is the only way to change our current system. English people should join as well
I'm absolutely certain this will happen, for a while anyway, after such a mass movement/surge of ideas, etc: during the Iraq War, inspired by the protests, I rememeber lots of young people (and older people returning back to politics) discussing which 'left wing party' they would join, thinking about inequality, etc, sadly it didn't last, it never seems to here.
Australia has had some of the most right wing and ideological Gov'ts of all 'western' democracies, Howard for one, Now Abbot...
especially on benefits and immigration
Similar threads
