Saudi gang rape victim sentenced to lashes and prison

[_angel_]

Quite and it still isn't perfect for women in this country. Women are still earning less than men because they are women and this is in spite of equal ops legislation.

Yep the Uk and Saudi state exactly the same for women??

Why, I wonder, do the left have such a hard time making even the tiniest criticism of a state like Saudi Arabia?

 

[MikeMcc]

Saudi law?

Women weren't allowed access to the banking system (loans/business finance/mortgages) or to own a house until the latter part of the 1970s in Britain.

And? At least we are making progress against the shit attitudes that allowed things like that to happen. Where's the progress for this poor girl when her lawyer is attacked and prevented from practicing because of the 'tactics' used?

 

[nino_savatte]

Hmmmm, while the situation in Saudi Arabia is shite for women, we should not allow ourselves to think that things are perfect for women in our patriarchal society, where women are objectified and often treated as second class.

Traditional female characteristics (for want of a better word) are not celebrated in either culture, whereas machismo is elevated to a position of near-worship.

 

[MikeMcc]

Hmmmm, while the situation in Saudi Arabia is shite for women, we should not allow ourselves to think that things are perfect for women in our patriarchal society, where women are objectified and often treated as second class.

Traditional female characteristics (for want of a better word) are not celebrated in either culture, whereas machismo is elevated to a position of near-worship.

Whilst you are correct, we shouldn't let that detract from the arguement over the (IMO) cruel punishment that this girl received and Fattboys blind support for Sharia law, no matter if he is genuine or just a troll.

 

[nino_savatte]

Whilst you are correct, we shouldn't let that detract from the arguement over the (IMO) cruel punishment that this girl received and Fattboys blind support for Sharia law, no matter if he is genuine or just a troll.

The problem that I find with the west's understanding of Sharia is that it focuses almost entirely upon the less savoury aspects of the law. The US allows minors to be imprisoned and executed...we also have some pretty questionable laws, many of which have never been removed from the statute book since their enactment centuries ago.

 

[MikeMcc]

The problem that I find with the west's understanding of Sharia is that it focuses almost entirely upon the less savoury aspects of the law. The US allows minors to be imprisoned and executed...we also have some pretty questionable laws, many of which have never been removed from the statute book since their enactment centuries ago.

I wouldn't mind if we were educated about other aspects of Sharia law. But this particular case highlights the major problem that most westerners (again, IMO) have with it. That it is brutal and not overly effective as a deterrent. If it was, there wouldn't be the 'need' for those 5000 honour killings per year worldwide. If we were to expand this thread to include all of the piss-poor laws in all of the countries it would become truely massive. No legal system can be entirely fair, even one that allows greater judgement and interpretation can be skewed because of the human fallibility of the judges carrying out that interpretation. I think we need to keep this thread concentrated on Sharia law and this particular case. If we want to expand on it to talk about other countries legal systems we should open a seperate thread.

 

[CyberRose]

The problem that I find with the west's understanding of Sharia is that it focuses almost entirely upon the less savoury aspects of the law. The US allows minors to be imprisoned and executed...we also have some pretty questionable laws, many of which have never been removed from the statute book since their enactment centuries ago.

So we should overlook these "less savoury" aspects of Sharia because of the good laws?

Or should we over look these aspects because other countries have laws we also disagree with?

At the end of the day, these so-called "less savoury" laws are wrong, palin and simple, which ever culture you were brought up in and should not be defended under any circumstances

 

[_angel_]

So we should overlook these "less savoury" aspects of Sharia because of the good laws?

Or should we over look these aspects because other countries have laws we also disagree with?

At the end of the day, these so-called "less savoury" laws are wrong, palin and simple, which ever culture you were brought up in and should not be defended under any circumstances

Yes. Simply defending something because you are I suspect, too scared to criticise any aspect at all of Islam is pretty weak tbh.

It doesn't mean to say you have to agree with every single daft law on the statute books in this country though.

 

[nino_savatte]

I wouldn't mind if we were educated about other aspects of Sharia law. But this particular case highlights the major problem that most westerners (again, IMO) have with it. That it is brutal and not overly effective as a deterrent. If it was, there wouldn't be the 'need' for those 5000 honour killings per year worldwide. If we were to expand this thread to include all of the piss-poor laws in all of the countries it would become truely massive. No legal system can be entirely fair, even one that allows greater judgement and interpretation can be skewed because of the human fallibility of the judges carrying out that interpretation. I think we need to keep this thread concentrated on Sharia law and this particular case. If we want to expand on it to talk about other countries legal systems we should open a seperate thread.

My point is entirely relevant to this thread; the western view of Sharia comes from a culturally relativist position that has been informed by religious values. Therefore my mention of the ridiculous laws of this and other western countries is appropriate.

Also, isn't it up to the people of that country to try and effect change? Who the fuck are we to sit in judgement over them? No, I'm not excusing this aspect of Sharia law nor am I defending it. Though I suspect other posters on this thread may reach that rather lazy conclusion.

 

[_angel_]

My point is entirely relevant to this thread; the western view of Sharia comes from a culturally relativist position that has been informed by religious values. Therefore my mention of the ridiculous laws of this and other western countries is appropriate.

Also, isn't it up to the people of that country to try and effect change? Who the fuck are we to sit in judgement over them? No, I'm not excusing this aspect of Sharia law nor am I defending it. Though I suspect other posters on this thread may reach that rather lazy conclusion.

No one should have imposed sanctions on South Africa for eg during apartheid then?

 

[butchersapron]

Nor should goods for chile have been blacked.

 

[Jonti]

Also, isn't it up to the people of that country to try and effect change?

Can I be truly free while a brother or sister remains in chains?

 

[CyberRose]

Who the fuck are we to sit in judgement over them?

Yet you freely criticise any number of peoples and nations...why can't you do the same for Saudi Arabia?

 

[MikeMcc]

My point is entirely relevant to this thread; the western view of Sharia comes from a culturally relativist position that has been informed by religious values. Therefore my mention of the ridiculous laws of this and other western countries is appropriate.

Also, isn't it up to the people of that country to try and effect change? Who the fuck are we to sit in judgement over them? No, I'm not excusing this aspect of Sharia law nor am I defending it. Though I suspect other posters on this thread may reach that rather lazy conclusion.

But the people in Saudi can't effect change, as this case proves. The defense lawyer has been sanctioned because of the approach taken! I appreciate that there are alot of piss-poor laws in all other countries, that does not make the sense of outrage over this particular case and the system that allows abuses such as this any less. The recent reports on the girl that was gang-raped raped in a Brazilian jail were equally odious, but this thread is about one particular girl and the system that brutalised her even further.

If we do you complain about such injustices then who will? It does not make injustices elsewhere any less important, it's just that they aren't in limits of this thread.

 

[nino_savatte]

But the people in Saudi can't effect change, as this case proves. The defense lawyer has been sanctioned because of the approach taken! I appreciate that there are alot of piss-poor laws in all other countries, that does not make the sense of outrage over this particular case and the system that allows abuses such as this any less. The recent reports on the girl that was gang-raped raped in a Brazilian jail were equally odious, but this thread is about one particular girl and the system that brutalised her even further.

If we do you complain about such injustices then who will? It does not make injustices elsewhere any less important, it's just that they aren't in limits of this thread.

Just to repeat: Sharia law does not consist solely of insane laws such as this.

 

[nino_savatte]

Can I be truly free while a brother or sister remains in chains?

Try asking that question to those folks who reckon it isn't our place to comment on the bombing of Lebanon because "[we're] trying to organise a working class base here". It's odd that they find the time to express their disgust at this incident but remain tight-lipped about w/c kids dying in Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

[nino_savatte]

I'm waiting for someone to come along and tell me that I support this court's ruling. That should be fun.

 

[fattboy]

I wouldn't take too seriously stories of a prophet who supposedly spoke with god in a cave or who went on a journey to heaven and met all the previous prophets. In fact I wouldn't take seriously too much about Muhammad because there's actually no evidence he existed and AFAIK the oldest Islamic documents date from at least 200 years after he is supposed to have lived.

But even more than all that I wouldn't take seriously a person who just says 'Muhammad is a paedo' cos it's clear they are happy to brainlessly regurgitate the one myth that anti-Muslim bigots love to throw around

The Prophet peace be upon him is the most well documented person in all of history, the Quran has existed unchanged since the time of its revelation to the Prophet peace be upon him, over 1400 years, not one word has been added or taken away, it is now as it was then.
please, dont just take my word 4 it, go 2 western sources like the Britannica encylopedia.
theres no question that the Prophet peace be upon him brought the Quran with all its miracles, what we and non muslims differ over is that it came from Almighty God.
ur correct that the hadiths started 2 be compliled around 200 years later, when the shia and other sects formed and started fabricating hadiths 2 support their own views and agendas, and there r a few different hadith books, but the books by Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim were so stringent in their compilation that these r accepted by all mainstream muslims and western scholars alike that they r the words of the Prophet peace be upon him and any muslim that denies them is outside the fold of Islam, they r the 2 most important books after the Quran and explain the Quran.
its absolutely ridiculous that anyone can question wether the Prophet peace be upon him existed, he formed the Islamic state, he delivered the revelation, he was a Prophet, head of state, husband,father, military leader, founder of the greatest empire the world has ever known.

 

[butchersapron]

Try asking that question to those folks who reckon it isn't our place to comment on the bombing of Lebanon because "[we're] trying to organise a working class base here". It's odd that they find the time to express their disgust at this incident but remain tight-lipped about w/c kids dying in Iraq and Afghanistan.

So is it ok to criticise or not? Make your mind up. Or least make clear that it's a luxuryy reserved to you alone.

 

[CyberRose]

I'm waiting for someone to come along and tell me that I support this court's ruling. That should be fun.

It would appear you have no opinion one way or another on the treatment of this woman...

Obviously by your comment above you don't support these laws, and by your earlier comment you don't believe you have the right to criticise said laws

 

[Belushi]

The Prophet peace be upon him is the most well documented person in all of history

No he isnt, theres loads of people who are better documented than Muhamed

 

[butchersapron]

The Prophet peace be upon him is the most well documented person in all of history,

Never heard of Amy Winehouse then?

 

[nino_savatte]

The smear gang's back. Now who are we missing?

 

[invisibleplanet]

But the people in Saudi can't effect change, as this case proves.

The inability to effect change is not caused by the presence of Sharia, rather, it is the Saudi elite's interpretation of Sharia and it's cynical use to keep the non-ruling class 'in line', combined with the lack of any meaningful modern political and social systems to effect change that is the problem.

 

[fattboy]

Is this why the US, that has the death penalty in most states, has one of the highest murder rates in the world?

please check the crime statistics 4 saudi and tell me the sharia isnt a deterrent, us laws arent sharia, even in part so i dont see the comparison ur trying 2 make.

 

[nino_savatte]

The inability to effect change is not caused by the presence of Sharia, rather, it is the Saudi elite's interpretation of Sharia and it's cynical use to keep the non-ruling class 'in line', combined with the lack of any meaningful modern political and social systems to effect change that is the problem.

Thanks, this is what I was trying to get at. The way in which Sharia is practised varies from country to country. Though it seems some posters here see Muslims as one single bloc.

 

[tarannau]

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Comparing the overall crime rates of two countries in isolation is a mug's game.

 

[butchersapron]

The inability to effect change is not caused by the presence of Sharia, rather, it is the Saudi elite's interpretation of Sharia and it's cynical use to keep the non-ruling class 'in line', combined with the lack of any meaningful modern political and social systems to effect change that is the problem.

That's an admission that sharia is at least a contributory factor.

And what doe this free-floating claim "lack of any meaningful modern political and social systems to effect change" mean? Where? When? What?

 

[MikeMcc]

Just to repeat: Sharia law does not consist solely of insane laws such as this.

Fine, but it still does not change the position that Sharia law does allow for these inhumanities to occur.

Try asking that question to those folks who reckon it isn't our place to comment on the bombing of Lebanon because "[we're] trying to organise a working class base here". It's odd that they find the time to express their disgust at this incident but remain tight-lipped about w/c kids dying in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Now who's trying to put words into the mouths of others? We're not denying that shitty things happen elsewhere in the world, just that this thread is about Sharia law and the incident covered by the OP.

 

[butchersapron]

Thanks, this is what I was trying to get at. The way in which Sharia is practised varies from country to country. Though it seems some posters here see Muslims as one single bloc.

Or when they criticise one particular interpretation of sharia they have 'that's not real sharia' thrown back in their faces.

Heads you win, tails i lose.