Saudi gang rape victim sentenced to lashes and prison

[fattboy]

Does anybody here actually think fattboy is really a Muslim? I mean come on! If he is he fits into every right-wing stereotype of Muslims there is!

which would be what? that we follow Islam? i suppose i do then.

 

[CyberRose]

Thanks, this is what I was trying to get at. The way in which Sharia is practised varies from country to country. Though it seems some posters here see Muslims as one single bloc.

Oh come off it, we're talking about a specific Saudi Law, one that says women are not allowed to mingle with members of the opposite sex they are not related to (plus various other laws in the same vein). Whether those laws are based on a correct or incorrect interpretation of Sharia Law is irrelevant, what is relevant is that those laws exist in Saudi Arabia and I personally think they are wrong, and I have no problem criticising them...I don't see why you have the same problem especially when you don't seem to have the same problem when it comes to criticising other nations or groups of people...

 

[butchersapron]

which would be what? that we follow Islam? i suppose i do then.

Are you in the mainstream of Mulsim views - in this country or internationally? And on this issue specifically?

 

[fattboy]

I'll bet you are...though I suspect that you're more of a returner.

nah, i used 2 be an altar boy actually

 

[MikeMcc]

The inability to effect change is not caused by the presence of Sharia, rather, it is the Saudi elite's interpretation of Sharia and it's cynical use to keep the non-ruling class 'in line', combined with the lack of any meaningful modern political and social systems to effect change that is the problem.

Precisely, and without pressure from the outside world the Saudi regime will not change because it is so repressive and Sharia law is one of the tools it uses.

 

[butchersapron]

Choir-boys asking for it was your old line.

 

[fattboy]

Saudi law?

Women weren't allowed access to the banking system (loans/business finance/mortgages) or to own a house until the latter part of the 1970s in Britain.

exactly, in Islam women had rights of property, marriage, owning businesses etc etc. 1400 years ago, and no honour killings dont have anything whatsoever 2 do with Islam, if anything this is more from hindu/sikh tradition and if a muslim does commit it its no reflection on Islam whatsoever as it has absolutely no basis in our religion.

 

[butchersapron]

All the bad things = culture
All the good things = Islam, def not culture.

 

[fattboy]

Hmmmm, while the situation in Saudi Arabia is shite for women, we should not allow ourselves to think that things are perfect for women in our patriarchal society, where women are objectified and often treated as second class.

Traditional female characteristics (for want of a better word) are not celebrated in either culture, whereas machismo is elevated to a position of near-worship.

women are highly respected in Islam, we love and respect our women and we dont like other men checking them out, does that make us bad.

where do we put our money and gold, do we hide it safely or do we walk down the street flashing it about.

 

[butchersapron]

women are highly respected in Islam, we love and respect our women and we dont like other men checking them out, does that make us bad.

where do we put our money and gold, do we hide it safely or do we walk down the street flashing it about.

:lol:

Notice the acting subject, the 'our' - always male.

 

[MikeMcc]

exactly, in Islam women had rights of property, marriage, owning businesses etc etc. 1400 years ago, and no honour killings dont have anything whatsoever 2 do with Islam, if anything this is more from hindu/sikh tradition and if a muslim does commit it its no reflection on Islam whatsoever as it has absolutely no basis in our religion.

More utter rubbish, your denial is as poor as your attempt at saying that no-one was convicted of the rapes. Try reading up about it. Yes it does occur with the Hindu and Sikh communities, but to try and deny that it does not occur in Islamic societies is plainly wrong. Nor am I saying that it doesn't happen in christian communities too, there have been a number of occasions of reprisals against catholic - protestant relationships.

From the Wikipedia article on honour killings:

According to the UN:

"The report of the Special Rapporteur ... concerning cultural practices in the family that are violent towards women (E/CN.4/2002/83), indicated that honour killings had been reported in Egypt, the Islamic Republic of Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Morocco, Pakistan, the Syrian Arab Republic, Turkey, Yemen, and other Mediterranean and Persian Gulf countries, and that they had also taken place in such countries as France, Germany and the United Kingdom, within migrant communities." [9]

 

[fattboy]

I wouldn't mind if we were educated about other aspects of Sharia law. But this particular case highlights the major problem that most westerners (again, IMO) have with it. That it is brutal and not overly effective as a deterrent. If it was, there wouldn't be the 'need' for those 5000 honour killings per year worldwide. If we were to expand this thread to include all of the piss-poor laws in all of the countries it would become truely massive. No legal system can be entirely fair, even one that allows greater judgement and interpretation can be skewed because of the human fallibility of the judges carrying out that interpretation. I think we need to keep this thread concentrated on Sharia law and this particular case. If we want to expand on it to talk about other countries legal systems we should open a seperate thread.

please bring me the evidence 4 honour killings in Islam, and no, some guy with a muslim name doing one doesnt count.

 

[invisibleplanet]

Precisely, and without pressure from the outside world the Saudi regime will not change because it is so repressive and Sharia law is one of the tools it uses.

This confusion of cultural practice with religion is commonplace in Islamophobic commentators, who often omit contextual evidence which would undermine their judgement.

For example, a BBC documentary about "honour killing' in a Pakistani village showed a pre-teen boy who was “ordered to kill” his mother, and put under incredible pressure until he actually did it. The mother, a widow, left her house to go to work to feed her children without permission of the male villagers. When interviewed about how they could bring that in line with the commands of Al Qur'an the men said the killing *was* a command of Al Qur'an. When asked where in Al Qur'an that was ordered, they answered they could not tell (they couldn't read) but it was surely there. They were completely convinced and very stubborn about it.

 

[butchersapron]

This confusion of cultural practice with religion is commonplace in Islamophobic commentators, who often omit contextual evidence which would undermine their judgement.

For example, a BBC documentary about "honour killing' in a Pakistani village showed a pre-teen boy who was “ordered to kill” his mother, and put under incredible pressure until he actually did it. The mother, a widow, left her house to go to work to feed her children without permission of the male villagers. When interviewed about how they could bring that in line with the commands of Al Qur'an the men said the killing *was* a command of Al Qur'an. When asked where in Al Qur'an that was ordered, they answered they could not tell (they couldn't read) but it was surely there. They were completely convinced and very stubborn about it.

As i said, it's easy

All the bad things = culture
All the good things = Islam, def not culture.

 

[invisibleplanet]

More utter rubbish, your denial is as poor as your attempt at saying that no-one was convicted of the rapes. Try reading up about it. Yes it does occur with the Hindu and Sikh communities, but to try and deny that it does not occur in Islamic societies is plainly wrong. Nor am I saying that it doesn't happen in christian communities too, there have been a number of occasions of reprisals against catholic - protestant relationships.

Again, “Honor killings’ are often cited by writers and pundits as evidence of sexism, barbarism, and primitive cultural attitudes, yet in reality, this practice is also found to be practiced within Hinduism and Sikhism, and is by no means prevelent in all cultures who practice Islam, or Hindusim, or Sikhism.

"Honor killings" occur in all cultures, even in European 'cultures'. One example of 'honor killing' in European culture is when a man kills (manslaughters) his wife/girlfriend for 'disrespecting him' - we call that 'domestic violence/manslaughter/murder' - another is the type of killing that goes on between rival gangs of youths/young adults - we call that 'murder'.

 

[fattboy]

No he isnt, theres loads of people who are better documented than Muhamed

like who?

 

[butchersapron]

This marvelous clinical seperation of religion and culture. Only a racist could suggets that the two are in some way connected. Especially in religious cultures.

 

[Spion]

its absolutely ridiculous that anyone can question wether the Prophet peace be upon him existed

What's the evidence for his existence? Who wrote about him at the time he was supposed to have existed?

 

[butchersapron]

like who?

Pete Doherty
J Caeser
Winsrton Churchill

 

[MikeMcc]

please bring me the evidence 4 honour killings in Islam, and no, some guy with a muslim name doing one doesnt count.

I editted my post to show the quote from the Wikipedia article, I could equally have used the AI report on the torture of women that is referenced in the article, or simply googled for any of the multitude of news stories on the subject.

 

[CyberRose]

which would be what? that we follow Islam? i suppose i do then.

No because you mysteriously turn up on this thread, write the most stereotypical opinions about Saudi Law knowing full well the type of responces it would bring out in posters...

 

[MikeMcc]

Again, “Honor killings’ are often cited by writers and pundits as evidence of sexism, barbarism, and primitive cultural attitudes, yet in reality, this practice is also found to be practiced within Hinduism and Sikhism, and is by no means prevelent in all cultures who practice Islam, or Hindusim, or Sikhism.

"Honor killings" occur in all cultures, even in European 'cultures'. One example of 'honor killing' in European culture is when a man kills (manslaughters) his wife/girlfriend for 'disrespecting him' - we call it 'domestic violence'.

I think that was what I also said in my post!

 

[invisibleplanet]

like who?

Your Grandad.

 

[fattboy]

Are you in the mainstream of Mulsim views - in this country or internationally? And on this issue specifically?

i believe in true Islam, as practiced by the Prophet peace be upon him and his companions, based on the evidences of the Quran and the ahadith, not some wishy washy watered down version that bush and brown would like us 2follow.

 

[butchersapron]

i believe in true Islam, as practiced by the Prophet peace be upon him and his companions, based on the evidences of the Quran and the ahadith, not some wishy washy watered down version that bush and brown would like us 2follow.

Not an answer shorty.

 

[invisibleplanet]

i believe in true Islam, as practiced by the Prophet peace be upon him and his companions, based on the evidences of the Quran and the ahadith, not some wishy washy watered down version that bush and brown would like us 2follow.

I'm menstruating, and thirsty. Will you give me of your cup to drink, or is this Haram?

 

[MikeMcc]

Again, “Honor killings’ are often cited by writers and pundits as evidence of sexism, barbarism, and primitive cultural attitudes, yet in reality, this practice is also found to be practiced within Hinduism and Sikhism, and is by no means prevelent in all cultures who practice Islam, or Hindusim, or Sikhism.

"Honor killings" occur in all cultures, even in European 'cultures'. One example of 'honor killing' in European culture is when a man kills (manslaughters) his wife/girlfriend for 'disrespecting him' - we call that 'domestic violence/manslaughter/murder' - another is the type of killing that goes on between rival gangs of youths/young adults - we call that 'murder'.

And in this country such acts are illegal. In some countries such killings would be deemed acceptable and perfectly legal.

 

[fattboy]

More utter rubbish, your denial is as poor as your attempt at saying that no-one was convicted of the rapes. Try reading up about it. Yes it does occur with the Hindu and Sikh communities, but to try and deny that it does not occur in Islamic societies is plainly wrong. Nor am I saying that it doesn't happen in christian communities too, there have been a number of occasions of reprisals against catholic - protestant relationships.

From the Wikipedia article on honour killings:

so they happen in muslim countries, and what?

bring me Quranic evidence that its permissible

my mum got her handbag snatched with £600 in it, does that mean this country promotes or tolerates theft???

 

[invisibleplanet]

And in this country such acts are illegal. In some countries such killings would be deemed acceptable and perfectly legal.

Name these countries. Who in those countries deems such killings as 'acceptable'.
Hard proof, please.

 

[fattboy]

This confusion of cultural practice with religion is commonplace in Islamophobic commentators, who often omit contextual evidence which would undermine their judgement.

For example, a BBC documentary about "honour killing' in a Pakistani village showed a pre-teen boy who was “ordered to kill” his mother, and put under incredible pressure until he actually did it. The mother, a widow, left her house to go to work to feed her children without permission of the male villagers. When interviewed about how they could bring that in line with the commands of Al Qur'an the men said the killing *was* a command of Al Qur'an. When asked where in Al Qur'an that was ordered, they answered they could not tell (they couldn't read) but it was surely there. They were completely convinced and very stubborn about it.

exactly, what some muslims do and what Islam is r not always the same thing, by a long shot, hence the state we find ourselves in 2day.