Researchers claim that 'whole nation 'could speak Welsh' within 300 years'

[Proper Tidy]

Not saying it should be ignored but focussing welsh history on a 13c prince is bollocks btw

 

[Proper Tidy]

Rebecca rioters, chartism, merthyr rising and newport uprising, that's the good shit

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Not saying it should be ignored but focussing welsh history on a 13c prince is bollocks btw

Indeed. And you've already mentioned it, but teaching people why Welsh is spoken where it is, but not other places - in some Valleys, but not others, for instance - is also an important part of the story of Welsh history.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Nid oes bradwr yn y ty hwn, teach that

 

[editor]

Not saying it should be ignored but focussing welsh history on a 13c prince is bollocks btw

Except I didn't say history lessons should be 'focussed on a 13c prince,' so why try to misrepresent my words?

However, he does play an important part in Welsh history and I can't think of any reason why he should be excluded completely from school history lessons in Wales.

Owain ab Gruffydd, lord of Glyndyfrdwy (c. 1359 – c. 1415), or simply Owain Glyndŵr or Glyn Dŵr (pronounced [ˈoʊain ɡlɨ̞nˈduːr], anglicized to Owen Glendower), was a Welsh leader who instigated a fierce and long-running yet ultimately unsuccessful war of independence with the aim of ending English rule in Wales during the Late Middle Ages. He was the last native Welshman to hold the title Prince of Wales

Owain Glyndŵr - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Fuck Owain Glyndwr. Raising a warlord from the Middle Ages to National Hero status is one of the more idiotic aspects of nationalism.

Well done for totally misrepresenting PT, btw. He specifically said 'not saying it should be ignored' in the bit you quote.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Except I didn't say history lessons should be 'focussed on a 13c prince,' so why try to misrepresent my words?

However, he does play an important part in Welsh history and I can't think of any reason why he should be excluded completely from school history lessons in Wales.

Owain Glyndŵr - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

No was more of a general comment about the fetishisation of some posh warlord cunt who was motivated purely and solely by self interest and being a warlord rather than any sense of welsh national identity or determination.

Ftr glyndwr spent a big chunk of his life in military service for the (english) king. It was just a power struggle between different gentry types across northern europe. Fuck them.

 

[editor]

Fuck Owain Glyndwr. Raising a warlord from the Middle Ages to National Hero status is one of the more idiotic aspects of nationalism.

Well done for totally misrepresenting PT, btw. He specifically said 'not saying it should be ignored' in the bit you quote.

You've got some fucking check whining about 'misrepresentation' after you've just completely fabricated a claim that I was 'raising a warlord from the Middle Ages to National Hero status.'
I made no such claim. Not even close. And I never claimed that Welsh history should be 'focussed' on Glyndwr either, which is what I was responding to.

 

[editor]

No was more of a general comment about the fetishisation of some posh warlord cunt who was motivated purely and solely by self interest and being a warlord rather than any sense of welsh national identity or determination.

Ftr glyndwr spent a big chunk of his life in military service for the (english) king. It was just a power struggle between different gentry types across northern europe. Fuck them.

So - just to clear this up - you don't think that he should even be mentioned in any part of Welsh school history, yes? Because that's the only point I made.

 

[JimW]

Was just thinking about here in China, where because it's one state you miss that there's dozens of Chinese-family languages that coexist with Mandarin but are in fact nearly as different from the standard than even Welsh from English - leaving aside non-Han languages which are a whole other thing. So other day was with a friend from Suzhou where they speak a Wu (IIRC) type of Chinese. He works in beijing and speaks perfect locally accented Madarin, but he also phoned his dad at one point and suddenly you remember his native language is something else. My wife was there too, and they speak one of the dialects of Min in her hometown, yet her mandarin is also native level. Last was a (Inner) Mongolian friend; he does have a bit of an accent and is not quite so fluent in Mandarin but has zero problems with it as a day-to-day language.
Point being, that sort of commonplace bilingualism is really pretty widespread, surely must apply to a lot of the other big multilingual nations.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Depends on how he's mentioned. All school history classes peddle propaganda of one kind or another, aimed at shaping a sense of national identity in the student. History classes in schools are mostly bollocks for that very reason.

 

[editor]

Depends on how he's mentioned. All school history classes peddle propaganda of one kind or another, aimed at shaping a sense of national identity in the student. History classes in schools are mostly bollocks for that very reason.

The straight simple facts would suffice, along with an explanation as to his cultural importance (which is not the same as endorsing it). I was taught nothing about him, yet I learnt all about Winston fucking Churchill, Henry VIII and all the English kings, 1066 and all that., etc etc.

Something like this, for example, would have been a good introduction, and is something that I think should be taught in Welsh schools. However you spin it, he does have a place in Welsh history.

Owain ab Gruffydd, lord of Glyndyfrdwy (c. 1359 – c. 1415), or simply Owain Glyndŵr or Glyn Dŵr (pronounced [ˈoʊain ɡlɨ̞nˈduːr], anglicized to Owen Glendower), was a Welsh leader who instigated a fierce and long-running yet ultimately unsuccessful war of independence with the aim of ending English rule in Wales during the Late Middle Ages. He was the last native Welshman to hold the title Prince of Wales (Welsh: Tywysog Cymru).

Glyndŵr was a descendant of the Princes of Powys through his father Gruffudd Fychan II, hereditary Tywysog of Powys Fadog and Lord of Glyndyfrdwy, and of those of Deheubarth through his mother Elen ferch Tomas ap Llywelyn ab Owen.[1] On 16 September 1400, Glyndŵr instigated the Welsh Revolt against the rule of Henry IV of England. The uprising was initially very successful and rapidly gained control of large areas of Wales, but it suffered from key weaknesses – particularly a lack of artillery, which made capturing defended fortresses difficult, and of ships, which made rebel-controlled coastlands vulnerable. The uprising was eventually suppressed by the superior resources of the English. Glyndŵr was driven from his last remaining strongholds in 1409, but he avoided capture; the last documented sighting of him was in 1412. He twice ignored offers of a pardon from his military nemesis, the new king Henry V of England, and despite the large rewards offered, Glyndŵr was never betrayed to the English. His death was recorded by a former follower in the year 1415.

With his death Owain acquired a mythical status along with Cadwaladr, Cynan and Arthur as a folk hero awaiting the call to return and liberate his people. In William Shakespeare's play Henry IV, Part 1, the character of Owen Glendower is a wild and exotic king ruled by magic and emotion.[2] In the late 19th century, the Cymru Fydd movement recreated him as the father of Welsh nationalism.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The straight simple facts would suffice,

As ever in history, the question is 'Which straight, simple facts? Why those ones and not others?' It's really not as simple as you make out.

 

[two sheds]

Was just thinking about here in China, where because it's one state you miss that there's dozens of Chinese-family languages that coexist with Mandarin but are in fact nearly as different from the standard than even Welsh from English - leaving aside non-Han languages which are a whole other thing. So other day was with a friend from Suzhou where they speak a Wu (IIRC) type of Chinese. He works in beijing and speaks perfect locally accented Madarin, but he also phoned his dad at one point and suddenly you remember his native language is something else. My wife was there too, and they speak one of the dialects of Min in her hometown, yet her mandarin is also native level. Last was a (Inner) Mongolian friend; he does have a bit of an accent and is not quite so fluent in Mandarin but has zero problems with it as a day-to-day language.
Point being, that sort of commonplace bilingualism is really pretty widespread, surely must apply to a lot of the other big multilingual nations.

But written Chinese is standard? I'd understood that people with different spoken languages could communicate with each other by drawing out the characters on their hand.

 

[editor]

As ever in history, the question is 'Which straight, simple facts? Why those ones and not others?' It's really not as simple as you make out.

Did you read the quote above? Which bits do you object to?

 

[JimW]

But written Chinese is standard? I'd understood that people with different spoken languages could communicate with each other by drawing out the characters on their hand.

Not really; pre about 1900 written Chinese was largely quite distinct from any of the spoken forms, then there was a New Culture and vernacularisation movement that began the introduction of writing that reflected common speech, but although it can show a bit of dialect it's broadly tied to standard Mandarin. You can see how e.g. cartoon strips in Hong Kong use a set of obscure characters that have been pressed into service to represent Cantonese phonemes and words that can't otherwise be written in characters.

 

[8ball]

Did you read the quote above? Which bits do you object to?

If that's what they learn, and they're equally up to speed on Gryffydd ap Llywelyn, then I wouldn't object.
Would seem a smidge dodgy otherwise.

 

[editor]

If that's what they learn, and they're equally up to speed on Gryffydd ap Llywelyn, then I wouldn't object.
Would seem a smidge dodgy otherwise.

Sorry what is a 'smite dodgy' now?

 

[JimW]

Did you read the quote above? Which bits do you object to?

I'd have left out the bit about "Prince of Wales" or put it differently; it suggests some sort of national polity when they had hardly ever been one despite the shared culture. Were there even any others before him bar Llewellyn?

 

[8ball]

Sorry what is a 'smite dodgy' now?

You don't remember smite dodgies?
You'll be telling me you've never heard of clarky cat next.

 

[editor]

I'd have left out the bit about "Prince of Wales" or put it differently; it suggests some sort of national polity when they had hardly ever been one despite the shared culture. Were there even any others before him bar Llewellyn?

I'm more troubled by the current 'Prince of Wales' who has precisely fuck all to do with Wales.

 

[editor]

You don't remember smite dodgies?
You'll be telling me you've never heard of clarky cat next.

Nice try to avoid answering the point.

 

[8ball]

I'm more troubled by the current 'Prince of Wales' who has precisely fuck all to do with Wales.

Both of them share never having been technical ruler of Wales.

 

[8ball]

Nice try to avoid answering the point.

There was no point to answer - you didn't seem to make one, except to say that you had failed to grasp mine.

 

[editor]

There was no point to answer - you didn't seem to make one, except to say that you had failed to grasp mine.

You claimed something could be 'dodgy' and I asked you to elaborate on that point, which you failed to do. But I can see that you're in one of you're pissing around moods so I'm going to ignore you in this thread from now on because I'm not interested in engaging in your disruptive drivel about ' clarky cat.'

 

[JimW]

I'm more troubled by the current 'Prince of Wales' who has precisely fuck all to do with Wales.

Ages since I read anything about him but IIRC it's actually more interesting precisely because he was making some sort of cultural saviour claim by taking the title and that must have been based on growing feelings of national resentment against the interlopers, but as it's put gets too tied up with a back-projected anachronistic kingdom or even nation state.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Unpopular opinion maybe but do it Wales! I learned the whole of Oh am Gariad by Cate Le Bon and it was the happiest 2 hours of my life. Beautiful language.

That was my experience of native Scots Gaelic speakers, English often more of a Scandi-esque lilt than stereotypically Scots, not surprising if you think about it.

The stereotypical Scots is central belt right? The north west coast/highlands etc don’t speak like that at all, native gaelic or not- I’ve no idea if we all have a scandi-esque lilt or not though..... I was(lost it a bit now) a native speaker but cassette tapes I have prove I spoke gaelic with a strong Invernessian accent which is not how I remember, I imagined we all sounded pure Donnie Dotaman- it was like urban gaelic or something, hilarious. I doubt my lot sound Scandi but I reckon most on the north west coast or at least the isles do native speaking or not. As well as Orkney and Shetland who do not speak gaelic at all.
Bit of a ramble there, interesting post though!

 

[JimW]

Unpopular opinion maybe but do it Wales! I learned the whole of Oh am Gariad by Cate Le Bon and it was the happiest 2 hours of my life. Beautiful language.

The stereotypical Scots is central belt right? The north west coast/highlands etc don’t speak like that at all, native gaelic or not- I’ve no idea if we all have a scandi-esque lilt or not though..... I was(lost it a bit now) a native speaker but cassette tapes I have prove I spoke gaelic with a strong Invernessian accent which is not how I remember, I imagined we all sounded pure Donnie Dotaman- it was like urban gaelic or something, hilarious. I doubt my lot sound Scandi but I reckon most on the north west coast or at least the isles do native speaking or not. As well as Orkney and Shetland who do not speak gaelic at all.
Bit of a ramble there, interesting post though!

More that the rhythm was quite different, not really sure if Scandi was the right comparison. I did mean as compared to real stage Scottish central belt type accents.

 

[8ball]

...cassette tapes I have prove I spoke gaelic with a strong Invernessian accent which is not how I remember, I imagined we all sounded pure Donnie Dotaman- it was like urban gaelic or something, hilarious. I doubt my lot sound Scandi but I reckon most on the north west coast or at least the isles do native speaking or not. As well as Orkney and Shetland who do not speak gaelic at all.
Bit of a ramble there, interesting post though!

If you're from Inverness and learn Gaelic in Glasgow, which accent will you speak it in?

 

[friedaweed]

Ugain Tudalen