Researchers claim that 'whole nation 'could speak Welsh' within 300 years'

[Combustible]

Jesus, they are fitting to two points
I know they are just using Welsh as a sort of positive control but even so

To be fair, the paper even says that "The exact percentage of long-term proficient users (74% after approximately 300 years) should not be treated as a quantitatively accurate prediction.", and that "The important model prediction is the qualitative outcome that the language is on a trajectory towards recovery." But then the article then goes and reports it in exactly the opposite way.

 

[8ball]

It wouldn't surprise me with the amount of resource put into Welsh language development.

When I was living there, it was reasonably trendy for young people to speak it, which has to help (however that was nearly 20 years ago now)

Yeah, it’s gone a bit flat since then.

In other news: in 150 years, 3000% of the world’s population will be using TikTok for 85 hours a day.

 

[Plumdaff]

It's a tricky conundrum. Outside of parts of West and North Wales Welsh isn't a language of daily living, but in order to change that lots more people need to speak Welsh, which means Welsh medium schooling in other parts of Wales.

My daughter goes to Welsh-medium school in Cardiff and there's no denying the schools are more middle class and whiter than they should be, to the extent that it was a consideration about sending her. How do you prevent Welsh fluency from being a class signifier in places like Cardiff? It's good to see that more Welsh medium schools are being built across Cardiff communities, for example, but ultimately I wonder if every school needs to be Welsh-medium (which in practice means bilingual) if you are going to increase Welsh but also decrease class inequalities in its provision.

 

[8ball]

The 2021 census will provide something a bit more reliable to go on.
The 2001-2011 decline was a bit of a surprise to many, and didn't fit my subjective impressions at the time.

I think untangling the class/race thing is an interesting one - rings true with how things were in the South when I was a kid, but didn't know if this was a very localised thing, or had changed in that time.

For a little context on a more medium-term scale:



I was a little surprised that its been damn near flat for half a century.

 

[editor]

Stats galore here: https://statswales.gov.wales/Catalogue/Welsh-Language

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's a tricky conundrum. Outside of parts of West and North Wales Welsh isn't a language of daily living, but in order to change that lots more people need to speak Welsh, which means Welsh medium schooling in other parts of Wales.

My daughter goes to Welsh-medium school in Cardiff and there's no denying the schools are more middle class and whiter than they should be, to the extent that it was a consideration about sending her. How do you prevent Welsh fluency from being a class signifier in places like Cardiff? It's good to see that more Welsh medium schools are being built across Cardiff communities, for example, but ultimately I wonder if every school needs to be Welsh-medium (which in practice means bilingual) if you are going to increase Welsh but also decrease class inequalities in its provision.

Isn't the problem deeper than that, though? It becomes not only a class signifier, but also something that gets you an advantage in certain sectors of the job market. Class inequalities in provision effectively become self-perpetuating.

 

[8ball]

Isn't the problem deeper than that, though? It becomes not only a class signifier, but also something that gets you an advantage in certain sectors of the job market. Class inequalities in provision effectively become self-perpetuating.

Yep. Becomes part of the "private evening extra tuition" smorgasbord.

 

[Plumdaff]

Isn't the problem deeper than that, though? It becomes not only a class signifier, but also something that gets you an advantage in certain sectors of the job market. Class inequalities in provision effectively become self-perpetuating.

Absolutely, although outside of teaching I think the advantages are rather overstated - the public sector in SE Wales is jam-packed full of people who can't speak Welsh, I should know, I'm one of them. But again, one of the ways to overcome that in the medium to long term is to ensure everyone can speak Welsh.

 

[editor]

Absolutely, although outside of teaching I think the advantages are rather overstated - the public sector in SE Wales is jam-packed full of people who can't speak Welsh, I should know, I'm one of them. But again, one of the ways to overcome that in the medium to long term is to ensure everyone can speak Welsh.

Even the last leader of Plaid Cymru couldn't speak fluent Welsh.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Absolutely, although outside of teaching I think the advantages are rather overstated - the public sector in SE Wales is jam-packed full of people who can't speak Welsh, I should know, I'm one of them. But again, one of the ways to overcome that in the medium to long term is to ensure everyone can speak Welsh.

That's the nub of it, though, no? If you don't speak Welsh at home or with your mates, learning it to any degree of competence is going to take effort. Erecting that as a hurdle immediately creates a class signifier that will confer advantage in certain circumstances. If it is a stated long-term ambition to have everyone speaking Welsh, what distortions are you creating along the way? And what does that do to incomers, how do you avoid marginalisation of those who don't speak it as the numbers who do rise?

 

[8ball]

Absolutely, although outside of teaching I think the advantages are rather overstated - the public sector in SE Wales is jam-packed full of people who can't speak Welsh, I should know, I'm one of them.

This is encouraging at least. If Welsh was to become a middle-class signifier of entitlement, that would kill it in the long term.
I took a look a while back at some discussions relating to other minority languages and Welsh is often used as an example of one where things are going pretty well.

 

[Plumdaff]

That's the nub of it, though, no? If you don't speak Welsh at home or with your mates, learning it to any degree of competence is going to take effort. Erecting that as a hurdle immediately creates a class signifier that will confer advantage in certain circumstances. If it is a stated long-term ambition to have everyone speaking Welsh, what distortions are you creating along the way? And what does that do to incomers, how do you avoid marginalisation of those who don't speak it as the numbers who do rise?

By getting past the idea that this is a competition where one language will win and the defeated must be marginalised - that's the model of what happened to Wales and Welsh in the past, it doesn't have to be the future. Many countries are easily, happily, multilingual. The idea that's it's a competition sets up reactionary situations where Katie Hopkins turns up in Wales trying to scare English incomer families into the idea that sending your kids to Welsh medium schools means they won't learn to read in English (utter utter bollocks of course).

If I were in government in Wales, I would work towards all education being Welsh medium, i.e bilingual. You also need increased provision for adult learning, many European countries already have programmes to ensure incomers can learn - friends who moved from Wales to Sweden are learning Swedish under a government programme there. The English language is always going to be part of life in Wales, and being bilingual speaking Welsh and English a massive advantage - there's a massive English-language Welsh culture particularly here in Welsh Wales that needs to be valued as much as anything in Cymraeg.

Ultimately what overcomes class inequalities here is what overcomes class inequalities anywhere - redistribution of wealth, access to education and culture, alleviation of poverty - language is a signifier of this in parts of Wales, but we shouldn't overlook the causes beneath,.

 

[8ball]

By getting past the idea that this is a competition where one language will win and the defeated must be marginalised - that's the model of what happened to Wales and Welsh in the past, it doesn't have to be the future. Many countries are easily, happily, multilingual. The idea that's it's a competition sets up reactionary situations where Katie Hopkins turns up in Wales trying to scare English incomer families into the idea that sending your kids to Welsh medium schools means they won't learn to read in English (utter utter bollocks of course).

I like this.

If I were in government in Wales, I would work towards all education being Welsh medium, i.e bilingual. You also need increased provision for adult learning, many European countries already have programmes to ensure incomers can learn - friends who moved from Wales to Sweden are learning Swedish under a government programme there.

Would be interesting to see the class breakdown of who takes that up in Sweden. Different, thing, though, obv.

Ultimately what overcomes class inequalities here is what overcomes class inequalities anywhere - redistribution of wealth, access to education and culture, alleviation of poverty - language is a signifier of this in parts of Wales, but we shouldn't overlook the causes beneath,.

You also have a Taffia set that isn't really interested in being inclusive. Inclusivity will be incredibly important in bringing younger working class people along imo. When I was in school there was a set of snotty Welsh-speaking kids who saw it as something that made them of a better class than us plebs who lived down near the refineries.

I think it was a defense mechanism to some degree, but it didn't really come over that way.

 

[mwgdrwg]

Whole Nation?

More like, the Whole Fucking World!

 

[8ball]

I reckon it’s bobbins and what’s more I will put my money where my mouth is; if this turns out to be correct, a tenner to the server fund!

And I'll put in a million if it's true.
Let's reconvene in 2320.

 

[Proper Tidy]

It's a tricky conundrum. Outside of parts of West and North Wales Welsh isn't a language of daily living, but in order to change that lots more people need to speak Welsh, which means Welsh medium schooling in other parts of Wales.

My daughter goes to Welsh-medium school in Cardiff and there's no denying the schools are more middle class and whiter than they should be, to the extent that it was a consideration about sending her. How do you prevent Welsh fluency from being a class signifier in places like Cardiff? It's good to see that more Welsh medium schools are being built across Cardiff communities, for example, but ultimately I wonder if every school needs to be Welsh-medium (which in practice means bilingual) if you are going to increase Welsh but also decrease class inequalities in its provision.

Bang on this. Find the middle classification of welsh fascinating and troubling along with growth of welsh as second language but diminishment as an every day language, while at same time obviously think more people speaking welsh is A Good Thing.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Even the last leader of Plaid Cymru couldn't speak fluent Welsh.

Wood's welsh is pretty decent from what I understand. She made some very interesting comments about how she could learn welsh but would never get the nuance or full understanding because it was a second language, not something she was immersed in, so stuff would pass her by

 

[8ball]

Bang on this. Find the middle classification of welsh fascinating and troubling along with growth of welsh as second language but diminishment as an every day language, while at same time obviously think more people speaking welsh is A Good Thing.

It's "Welsh as cultural pursuit".

 

[Proper Tidy]

This is encouraging at least. If Welsh was to become a middle-class signifier of entitlement, that would kill it in the long term.
I took a look a while back at some discussions relating to other minority languages and Welsh is often used as an example of one where things are going pretty well.

Might sound like a miserable cunt here but fuck it, it's true. Welsh survived as a first language where others didn't in certain areas because those areas mainly remained static demographically. That is why it is concentrated in parts of west and north. It didn't hang on as dominant language and barely survived as a minority first language in the industrial areas.

Like plumdaff alludes to, for welsh to survive as a living breathing language it has to be relevant regardless of demographics and that means no welsh medium or english medium education. Bilingual from the get go. In fairness, my daughters school (english medium) treats welsh as something that is part of everything, not a subject for two hours a week so maybe it's hearing that way

 

[editor]

Wood's welsh is pretty decent from what I understand.

I don't think that's true at all

Speaking about her proficiency in Welsh, the Plaid leader told party members: "A lack of confidence is a barrier.

"I've lost count of the times I have felt uncomfortable when Welsh speakers turn to English because of me.

"But more than anything, I feel angry. Angry that I have lost something so valuable - something I deserve to have and something my grandfather had."

Plaid Cymru's Leanne Wood 'angry' over her lack of Welsh

Plaid leader "bitter at losing out on all the culture" but pledges to keep learning the language.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Proper Tidy]

I don't think that's true at all

Plaid Cymru's Leanne Wood 'angry' over her lack of Welsh

Plaid leader "bitter at losing out on all the culture" but pledges to keep learning the language.

www.bbc.co.uk

That is exactly what she is talking about though

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Due to global warming and nuclear war the remaining landmass will be a few square miles and the population will be in double figures though.

And if the language develops in a normal way it will only be partially intelligible to today's Welsh speakers.

I've heard Welsh spoken. Its only partially intelligible now.

 

[8ball]

I've heard Welsh spoken. Its only partially intelligible now.

What you need to do is loudly and clearly shout "DO YOU SPEAK 'MERICAN"!?!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Wood's welsh is pretty decent from what I understand. She made some very interesting comments about how she could learn welsh but would never get the nuance or full understanding because it was a second language, not something she was immersed in, so stuff would pass her by

This is fetishising it, though, which is also not really helpful. I'm kind of torn two ways on this issue. I do think it's good that Welsh has been introduced far more in schools, and I'd like to have learned some when I was at school. And the nasty history of 'Welsh Not' and all that was a vile thing, of course. But the majority of Welsh people don't speak Welsh, for a variety of reasons - cos somewhere down the line, parents didn't teach it to their children, but also, and very commonly, because somewhere down the line they are descendants of English-speaking immigrants. Welsh-speaking can't be a condition or test of Welshness, and I think Wood's kind of sentiment is in danger of promoting just that idea.

 

[Pickman's model]

But the majority of Welsh people don't speak Welsh, for a variety of reasons - cos somewhere down the line, parents didn't teach it to their children, but also, and very commonly, because somewhere down the line they are descendants of English-speaking immigrants.

how does that stop them, how does that prevent them, learning welsh?

 

[maomao]

I've heard Welsh spoken. Its only partially intelligible now.

Hope you were wearing your oilskins.

 

[8ball]

Bloody immigrants coming in, not learning the language...

 

[editor]

But the majority of Welsh people don't speak Welsh, for a variety of reasons...

The main reason is that many generations of Welsh people weren't taught Welsh at school to any kind of meaningful standard or given any reason to bother - it was presented as a pointless anachronism, even when Welsh was all around them.

In my experience when growing up, if you were Welsh, you were mainly made to feel second class. At school I was essentially taught English history and knew nothing of Owain Glyndwr, for example, and the only musicians singing in Welsh would be obscure Eisteddfod dwellers and choirs, probably singing something from a few centuries ago.

That's all changed massively in recent years - I've booked three Welsh speaking bands at my Brixton gigs in the past - with a growing sense of Welsh identity and culture. The growth of Welsh medium schools is a bloody good thing too. Even if the kids never have reason to speak Welsh, learning more than one language at school is a very positive thing.

 

[mwgdrwg]

Unbelievably, speaking Welsh is still regularly banned in many workplaces, even though we're in the in the 21st Century.

E.g. Factory 'interfered' with staff speaking Welsh

 

[Proper Tidy]

This is fetishising it, though, which is also not really helpful. I'm kind of torn two ways on this issue. I do think it's good that Welsh has been introduced far more in schools, and I'd like to have learned some when I was at school. And the nasty history of 'Welsh Not' and all that was a vile thing, of course. But the majority of Welsh people don't speak Welsh, for a variety of reasons - cos somewhere down the line, parents didn't teach it to their children, but also, and very commonly, because somewhere down the line they are descendants of English-speaking immigrants. Welsh-speaking can't be a condition or test of Welshness, and I think Wood's kind of sentiment is in danger of promoting just that idea.

In fairness to Wood, she was talking specifically about nuance of language not culture and was always good on pointing out english speaking wales is as much welsh culture (tbh for people looking in the accents and habits and stereotypes they associate with wales almost all come from industrial - mostly english speaking - wales) although the attitude you refer to is rampant in plaid