Rejecting vaccination - "growing public health time bomb", NHS Chief warns

[Wilf]

If there was an iron fist to be applied to anyone it should have been Wakefield and his ilk. After his lies were ultimately debunked he's managed to carve himself a well paid little right wing niche in the States iirc. He should have been crushed, Icke should have been crushed, all those monsters. But this talk of, literally, forcing anyone to get themselves or their kids vaccinated is genuine madness. What happens next? 6 months later they realise they haven't contracted measles, they start to praise the enlightenment and rationality breaks out? No, if you really want to inflate the madness of both conspiraloons and the right - and more importantly a conspiraloonery of the right - that's the way to go.

Don't get me wrong, do everything you can to expose them as the filthy liars they are. Do everything you can to normalise vaccinations. But also do a bit more to attack 'Big Pharma' (fuck, I hate that phrase) and all the other money grabbing cunts that pervert science, reroute it away from the needs of humanity and the rest.

 

[tim]

'or something like it'

Point is that you don't counter my argument that quarantine is sometimes necessary when I have given a concrete real-world example of it by citing a bunch of infections for which quarantine is not necessary. Of course there are infections for which quarantine is not necessary. Thousands of them. That doesn't change the nature of the ones for which quarantine is needed.

You've been caught out talking shit. Just accept it.

Diseases that incapacitate and kill people rapidly such as Ebola "or something like it" are not a real danger in a rich society with good healthcare system. They are diseases of the poor.

In reality it is diseases that mildly incapacitate many and threaten or terminate the lives of a small minority that are the real killers in societies like ours. Influenza is probably the most dangerous of these diseases in modern Britain. These are diseases which it is impractical or impossible to quarantine. We as encourage those perceived to be at risk to get themselves vaccinated. Would you make that mandatory? Would you have the police round up pensioners and shepherd them with their truncheons to special geriatric clinics?

Returning to your disease concentration camps. As I have said the only disease that has seriously led to call for quarantine in recent history here is AIDS/HIV. A plea linked with folk with very unpleasant politics and religious beliefs.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

So a return to leper colonies. What do you class as aserious infectious disease? Would you have spent the 80s rounding up folk with HIV/AIDS? That would have put you rather ironically in the company of God's cop, James Anderton

Web results James Anderton - Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org › wiki › James...

Ebola isn't an issue in the UK. And is not likely to become one. Influenza is probably the main communicative disease that kills here. Would you force people with the flu into quarantine?

Oh, and here's an article on the calls for quarantining people with HIV/AIDS.

Beyond Homophobia » AIDS and Quarantine: Looking Backward

Quarantine is typically only relevant or used for diseases which are highly contagious - Ebola being an obvious example, but dangerous diseases transmitted by the airborne route can also be included (e.g. smallpox, if it became an issue again due to thawing permafrost).

You're right that there were calls to quarantine gay men (in particular) during the AIDS crisis is the 80s - but that was clearly linked to the prevailing homophobia common at the time. Fear and ignorance played a part too, especially before the causative virus was identified along with modes of transmission.

But the fact remains that the quarantine calls at the time were rooted in prejudice, and totally absurd given HIV isn't transmissible by air or other casual contact.

The religious people advocating for this were utter cunts - and sadly this advocacy still crops up in the religious right in the US, including calls for gay people to be put in concentration camps.

 

[Shechemite]

If there was an iron fist to be applied to anyone it should have been Wakefield and his ilk. After his lies were ultimately debunked he's managed to carve himself a well paid little right wing niche in the States iirc. He should have been crushed, Icke should have been crushed, all those monsters. But this talk of, literally, forcing anyone to get themselves or their kids vaccinated is genuine madness. What happens next? 6 months later they realise they haven't contracted measles, they start to praise the enlightenment and rationality breaks out? No, if you really want to inflate the madness of both conspiraloons and the right - and more importantly a conspiraloonery of the right - that's the way to go.

Don't get me wrong, do everything you can to expose them as the filthy liars they are. Do everything you can to normalise vaccinations. But also do a bit more to attack 'Big Pharma' (fuck, I hate that phrase) and all the other money grabbing cunts that pervert science, reroute it away from the needs of humanity and the rest.

This

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yes you can. People refuse ‘compulsory’ treatment all the time. Hence detentions, restraint and forced treatment/medication - and all the violence that comes with that.

Which is why I asked about it here: for those who want a system of forcing people to have vaccinations (which is different to removing parental responsibility for children’s vaccinations) - what do you think will/should happen when adults refuse to have themselves vaccinated?

Given the risk they pose, they should be all sent to live in the same area - Stoke on Trent strikes me as suitably punitive. That way, their refusal only affects others like them, not the general population.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The iron fist in the velvet glove approach, where beyond vaccination does your authoritarian liberalism stop? What else are you going to force people to do?

Well, hopefully he won't stop before he's put an end to your crap trolling.

 

[Wilf]

Not unexpected:

Populists across the world are significantly more likely to believe in conspiracy theories about vaccinations, global warming and the 9/11 terrorist attacks, according to a landmark global survey shared exclusively with the Guardian.

The YouGov-Cambridge Globalism Project sheds new light on a section of the world population that appears to have limited faith in scientific experts and representative democracy.

Analysis of the survey found the clearest tendency among people with strongly held populist attitudes was a belief in conspiracy theories that were contradicted by science or factual evidence.

Revealed: populists far more likely to believe in conspiracy theories

 

[Shechemite]

It’s not like the actual Nazi Party was bereft of irrational medical ideas.

This is what 21st century fascism looks like.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Some scary stats here...

The outbreak comes amid an alarming number of measles diagnoses in the U.S., with 704 cases already reported this year in 22 states — the most in 25 years. It's an astonishing uptick for a disease that was declared eradicated in the U.S. by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in 2000.

The numbers around the globe are even more distressing: The World Health Organization has counted 112,000 measles cases in the first quarter of 2019 — an increase of 300 percent compared with one year prior.

In 1980, measles-related deaths worldwide numbered 2.6 million. By 2014, that number had dropped to 73,000.

Scientology Ship Quarantined in St. Lucia After Measles Diagnosis

 

[quimcunx]

Terrifying and sad.

I work indirectly for Big Pharma (mostly oncology), and I get asked all the time (by people who seem generally perfectly sane and reasonable) about the cures for cancer which have been discovered and then locked away for ever.

It's unfalsifiable and there's something so compelling about the narrative, and then when you get places where people can't get access to proper treatment, or have to bankrupt themselves in doing so, well, I can understand the desperation.

What a mess.

I usually respond by trying to explain that cancer is a whole family of diseases working in different, very complex ways (to the degree that talking about a cure is a bit like talking about a "cure for infections"), and that some kinds of cancer are effectively curable these days, and the reasons why the more stubborn ones may be a long way from being fixable. People seem receptive, but I wonder whether anything I say persists beyond their next visit to Facebook.

I was listening to something ages ago speaking about conspiracy theories on cancer cures being hidden. They were talking about the vast number of people who would have to keep the secret - many, many thousands. The chances that absolutely none of them would leak the info. Importantly it would include people who get cancer and whose families get cancer who choose to watch them die rather than divulge the secret that the cancer can be cured. Maybe mention that to them.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Sorry Cupid, according to Poi E , you cannot do anything to a child without their express consent. That blows your idea of vaccination for all right out of the water.

 

[Sasaferrato]

I was listening to something ages ago speaking about conspiracy theories on cancer cures being hidden. They were talking about the vast number of people who would have to keep the secret - many, many thousands. The chances that absolutely none of them would leak the info. Importantly it would include people who get cancer and whose families get cancer who choose to watch them die rather than divulge the secret that the cancer can be cured. Maybe mention that to them.

I'm more and more coming to the view that a state pharmaceutical industry is needed.

 

[Poi E]

Sorry Cupid, according to Poi E , you cannot do anything to a child without their express consent. That blows your idea of vaccination for all right out of the water.

This issue of being assaulted as a child has you exercised. That's cool.

 

[gentlegreen]

Hearing about the Scientology cruise ship measles quarantine made me realise I don't know what I was vaccinated against as someone born in 1960.
I had chickenpox which led to shingles in 2011.
I don't know if I would have been vaccinated against measles....

 

[gentlegreen]

I don't remember catching it, but I distinctly remember a neighbour coming in and inspecting my brother who had caught something or other...


The MMR vaccine was introduced in 1988. Prior to that a licensed vaccine to prevent measles first became available in 1963, an improved measles vaccine in 1968. Most adults born before 1970 in the UK are likely have had measles infection and therefore be immune.19 Apr 2013

Q&A: Measles and MMR

 

[farmerbarleymow]

Hearing about the Scientology cruise ship measles quarantine made me realise I don't know what I was vaccinated against as someone born in 1960.
I had chickenpox which led to shingles in 2011.
I don't know if I would have been vaccinated against measles....

Me neither. I don't know how far back medical records go, but presumably they'd weed the files otherwise the NHS would drown in paperwork. It would be interesting to know if this type of information is retained though.

The only vaccinations I remember as a kid were polio and the second TB vaccination around 11 years old or so (I was vaccinated as a baby too, due to my grandfather suffering from it but obviously I don't remember that).

 

[gentlegreen]

Me neither. I don't know how far back medical records go, but presumably they'd weed the files otherwise the NHS would drown in paperwork. It would be interesting to know if this type of information is retained though.

The only vaccinations I remember as a kid were polio and the second TB vaccination around 11 years old or so (I was vaccinated as a baby too, due to my grandfather suffering from it but obviously I don't remember that).

Yes I clearly remember the sugar lump and the heaf TB test in my teens.

 

[gentlegreen]

If I manage to move to France presumably I will get to see my all my medical records unless the law dictates that they go straight to a translator ...

 

[farmerbarleymow]

You won't be able to read the old records as they'll be hand-written.

 

[cupid_stunt]

You won't be able to read the old records as they'll be hand-written.

That's true.

 

[aqua]

Me neither. I don't know how far back medical records go, but presumably they'd weed the files otherwise the NHS would drown in paperwork. It would be interesting to know if this type of information is retained though.

The only vaccinations I remember as a kid were polio and the second TB vaccination around 11 years old or so (I was vaccinated as a baby too, due to my grandfather suffering from it but obviously I don't remember that).

My Mum diligently wrote down the things I had when I was little (chicken pox, whooping cough, mumps and german measles ) so I am assuming there were no vaccines for those in the late 70's/early 80's!

 

[farmerbarleymow]

My Mum diligently wrote down the things I had when I was little (chicken pox, whooping cough, mumps and german measles ) so I am assuming there were no vaccines for those in the late 70's/early 80's!

Mine was a bit clueless when I asked many years ago what I'd had as a kid, both illnesses and vaccines. She obviously wasn't paying attention.

The only illness I remember as a kid was when I was around 5/6, although I don't know what it was. My dad bought me a toy (red metal london bus I think) to cheer me up as I was probably being a mardy little shit.

 

[gentlegreen]

Were it not for chickenpox in the 60s I would never have seen a Beano or a Dandy.

I remember being stuck in bed for ages with a cardboard box over my spotty legs and somebody kindly brought a stack of the aforementioned less than educational graphic novels...

Still got a scar somewhere...

I had a thankfully mild case of shingles in 2011...

 

[Ming]

That's true.

View attachment 170134

So. Fucking. True. I’ve seen doctor’s orders that, i swear, looked like they were written in Cyrillic script.

 

[Sue]

You won't be able to read the old records as they'll be hand-written.

You would think so but...

A couple of years ago, I went to my GP as I needed some travel vaccinations and couldn't quite remember what I'd had when. When they told me they had all my vaccination records, I was a bit sceptical, until they printed them out. There's a list of every vaccination I've ever had -- going back to the early 1970s -- along with the date administered.

Given I've moved round a lot and all the childhood stuff was done in Scotland where it's all different -- I've been living in England for a long time and even lived abroad for a few years (though that stuff obviously isn't included) -- I was, frankly astonished. They obviously computerised all this at some point, going way back. (I've still got the printout somewhere).

 

[Sue]

If I manage to move to France presumably I will get to see my all my medical records unless the law dictates that they go straight to a translator ...

You can see your records now, though you'd have to request them/pay an admin fee.

 

[scifisam]

Even if you can't check your records, or not quickly enough, you can get your titres tested. That doesn't show if you've been vaccinated, but it shows if you've been exposed, so don't need to be vaccinated, or haven't, so do (if you can be - some vaccinations just don't work well for adults).

 

[8ball]

Even if you can't check your records, or not quickly enough, you can get your titres tested. That doesn't show if you've been vaccinated, but it shows if you've been exposed, so don't need to be vaccinated, or haven't, so do (if you can be - some vaccinations just don't work well for adults).

You sound pretty knowledgable on this.
Is it an issue if you get slightly *too* vaccinated?

(I know there are schedules, but ime that's usually to do with different vaccinations, and I only know enough about immunology to know it's bloody complex)

 

[agricola]

So. Fucking. True. I’ve seen doctor’s orders that, i swear, looked like they were written in Cyrillic script.

maybe the GP was rushin'?



ill get my own coat

 

[Ming]

maybe the GP was rushin'?



ill get my own coat

Jesus....