Reading Marx's 'Capital': Tips, Questions, Theory, Support and Bookclub Bunfight...

[Ptolemy]

Thought I'd resurrect this thread in conjunction with the other one, as there are some really helpful posts in here - thanks to all who have helped to clear my head (and a relief too to see that people struggled with the same concepts that I have!).

 

[Riklet]

I went back to Capital a few weeks ago. By the swimming pool innit. Glad ive persevered - im going to read all 3 volumes! Im on Chapter 15 now! It's long and interesting.

Might watch the David Harvey vids and read the guide a bit I think. In all honesty I havent found 11-14 that hard going or difficult to understand. Very enlightening and interesting though.

They've inspired me to take the piss with break times at work, try and do my driving test during work time, not hand in doctor's sick notes and paperwork I should have (until Im forced to) and not sign myself in and out on the stupid tick box system. Oh and try and get more of my co-workers behind a bit of industrial action in the near future! *thumbs*

Suck on that reduced (?) Surplus value, Capital!

 

[Gramsci]

I have read volume one. Some time ago.

Told an acquaintance of mine, who has read all of Marx, told me I would not have understood much of it, and advised me to read Grundrisee next. His notebooks for Capital. The first book on Capital is the only one be finished completely. The other two were put together by Engels.

I had to stick with it. After the chapter on the working day it got easier.

What did I get out of it in first reading?

What stayed with me is that labour under Capitalism is a special kind of commodity. In theory we ( the worker) sells our labour in the market. But in reality it's alienated labour. It's not an equal exchange. The worker sells his labour from which the Mill owner for example gets surplus value. Which when the commodity is sold he can build his Capital. Does nothing for me.

Selling ones labour as a commodity means one loses control over one's capacity to "work" just for the sake of it. Like I've been working voluntarily to help get an adventure playground up an running. Something I'm doing as I believe in it. It benefits society as a whole. Makes me feel good. But it doesn't fit into Capitalist framework. It doesn't help me keep myself fed and housed.

Marx contrasts "wage slavery" with slavery. Wage slavery , I think it's Marx being sarcastic here, is an "improvement" on slavery. Under slavery the hard pressed slave owner had to minimally feed etc his slaves. Under Capitalism the Capitalist can hire and fire people as the economy went up and down. They can then fend for themselves. A much more "efficient" system.

In volume one Marx imo points out that Capitalism has made possible a truly free society. The massive growth in productivity could mean that the necessities of life are met. That potentially people could be freed to work as they choose.

This is the difference between scientific socialism and utopian schemes. I don't think Marx was opposed to Owenites etc. But he saw Capitalism has preparing practical material base for human liberation.

Nor do I think that Marx thought the idea of human freedom was new. It was that only now that this could be realised.

The commodity. I am going to go back and read first chapters. As posters have I implied.

Marx does make references to literature. I read Balzac. ( Cousin Bette) One of Marx favourite writers. What Balzac showed was that in post Revolutionary and Napoleonic France everything was for sale. A commodity becomes equilivant to any other commodity. This seeps into all aspects of life. It's "alienating".

I think what I got out of volume one was that Capitalism has produced massive increase in fulfilling genuine human needs but in a way that's not under the control of the greater mass of the population.

 

[Riklet]

Im still finishing chapter 15

Loooong. Been dipping into the Harvey guide and vids at the same time too. Interesting addition but I dont know if they make it much clearer or easier reading, in some ways I think they'll be more useful once I've finally finished the whole thing. This will be this year and not in 5 more years I hope!!

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Im still finishing chapter 15

Loooong. Been dipping into the Harvey guide and vids at the same time too. Interesting addition but I dont know if they make it much clearer or easier reading, in some ways I think they'll be more useful once I've finally finished the whole thing. This will be this year and not in 5 more years I hope!!

I did it the opposite way to you. I tried to read Capital loads of times and failed and gave up. I couldn’t get my head round it. The Harvey videos (which I think Butchers or someone posted here) got me interested again.

I read his book chapter by chapter. Harvey first, then Marx, then back to Harvey. It was invaluable. I really think Harvey is brilliant - the way he explains it and allows you to grasp the concepts.

Whatever works for you stick at it though. If you get stuck someone here will be able to help.

 

[Happy Larry]

In volume one Marx imo points out that Capitalism has made possible a truly free society.

Marx had it spot on.

Communism is an economic and social system that looks great in theory, but ignores the human factor. People will always work harder or more productively if given the motivating factor that this will bring about a better life for themselves and their family.

 

[Pickman's model]

Marx had it spot on.

Communism is an economic and social system that looks great in theory, but ignores the human factor. People will always work harder or more productively if given the motivating factor that this will bring about a better life for themselves and their family.

have you found any of those articles disproving socialism you were on about?

 

[krtek a houby]

Marx had it spot on.

Communism is an economic and social system that looks great in theory, but ignores the human factor. People will always work harder or more productively if given the motivating factor that this will bring about a better life for themselves and their family.

Like working for Lord Leverhulme, eh, Larry?

 

[danny la rouge]

Marx had it spot on.

Communism is an economic and social system that looks great in theory, but ignores the human factor. People will always work harder or more productively if given the motivating factor that this will bring about a better life for themselves and their family.

You don't sound like you've actually read any Marx.

 

[Pickman's model]

You don't sound like you've actually read any Marx.

he doesn't sound like he's read anything beyond the likes of rand and the collected speeches of margaret thatcher

 

[mojo pixy]

People will always work harder or more productively if given the motivating factor that this will bring about a better life for themselves and their family.

This is utter balls. People work hard for tons of reasons. I was reading an article yesterday about burnout in care management, service managers working 80-100 hour weeks. Are they doing that for their families?

 

[Pickman's model]

Marx had it spot on.

Communism is an economic and social system that looks great in theory, but ignores the human factor. People will always work harder or more productively if given the motivating factor that this will bring about a better life for themselves and their family.

so what work do you do, chuck?

 

[Happy Larry]

People work hard for tons of reasons.

Of course they do, dear. Did I say there aren't other reasons? Some people don't even have families. However, most of us do and, as I said, they will work harder if they feel that doing so will benefit their families. Do you feel that being rewarded for their hard work with extra pay/benefits will de-motivate them?

Do try and keep up.

 

[mojo pixy]

People will always work harder or more productively if given the motivating factor that this will bring about a better life for themselves and their family.

This is utter balls. People work hard for tons of reasons. I was reading an article yesterday about burnout in care management, service managers working 80-100 hour weeks. Are they doing that for their families?

Not to mention writers, musicians and artists who work for years on their creations for neither fame nor fortune. If anything this can be harmful to their family life.

 

[mojo pixy]

Of course they do, dear. Did I say there aren't other reasons? Some people don't even have families. However, most of us do and, as I said, they will work harder if they feel that doing so will benefit their families. Do you feel that being rewarded for their hard work with extra pay/benefits will de-motivate them?

Do try and keep up.

Keep up with what? You joker

 

[mojo pixy]

Of course they do, dear. Did I say there aren't other reasons? Some people don't even have families. However, most of us do and, as I said, they will work harder if they feel that doing so will benefit their families. Do you feel that being rewarded for their hard work with extra pay/benefits will de-motivate them?

Do try and keep up.

Extra pay and benefits? In social care?

Do try and keep up.

 

[Pickman's model]

Of course they do, dear. Did I say there aren't other reasons? Some people don't even have families. However, most of us do and, as I said, they will work harder if they feel that doing so will benefit their families. Do you feel that being rewarded for their hard work with extra pay/benefits will de-motivate them?

Do try and keep up.

yeh. what work do you do, chuck?

 

[Ptolemy]

yeh. what work do you do, chuck?

Looking for canal diggers on certain islands in the South Atlantic?

 

[Pickman's model]

Looking for canal diggers on certain islands in the South Atlantic?

prior experience not required

 

[Ptolemy]

prior experience not required

An unpaid internship with the possibility of promotion if he works had enough? The capitalist ethos may be suitable after all.

Happy Larry should read about alienation, particularly with regard to the worker's alienation from the productive act. I know people who work themselves half to death, can barely keep up with the bills (through rising cost of living but no increase in wage) and are in despair.

 

[Pickman's model]

An unpaid internship with the possibility of promotion if he works had enough? The capitalist ethos may suit it after all.

Happy Larry should read about alienation, particularly with regard to the worker's alienation from the productive act. I know people who work themselves half to death, can barely keep up with the bills (through rising cost of living but no increase in wage) and are in despair.

no time for reading while you're working on the south georgia canals.

 

[CNT36]

Marx had it spot on.

Communism is an economic and social system that looks great in theory, but ignores the human factor. People will always work harder or more productively if given the motivating factor that this will bring about a better life for themselves and their family.

I'd slack off and work less productively to get some time off the family.

 

[Happy Larry]

I'd slack off and work less productively

Great idea. That should take care of the kids Uni fees!

Er wait....

 

[Happy Larry]

I think what I got out of volume one was that Capitalism has produced massive increase in fulfilling genuine human needs but in a way that's not under the control of the greater mass of the population.

Capitalism has indeed been a massive success

Regarding the control issue, Marx wrote in a time (the nineteenth century) when individual freedom was often not entrenched in law. Today, in Western nations especially, we have more control over our own lives than ever before.

 

[mojo pixy]

Capitalism has indeed been a massive success

u know u make me wanna meme (come on yeah)

 

[krtek a houby]

 

[Ptolemy]

Capitalism has indeed been a massive success

Regarding the control issue, Marx wrote in a time (the nineteenth century) when individual freedom was often not entrenched in law. Today, in Western nations especially, we have more control over our own lives than ever before.

There may be theoretical "control", but when people's economic prospects in a materialistic society are grim actual control is much harder to achieve.

You talk about freedom, but which freedom do you think makes people happier and more productive - freedom to change from one inadequate paying job to another - or freedom from hunger, poverty, disease, want, etc?

I think I know the answer, but do tell.

 

[Happy Larry]

freedom from hunger, poverty, disease, want, etc?

Do you really believe that the population of the UK suffers from the above?

 

[shifting gears]

Do you really believe that the population of the UK suffers from the above?

I heard people are going to food banks "for a laugh" and a bit of a social

 

[krtek a houby]

Do you really believe that the population of the UK suffers from the above?

You're shitting me now.

Why Victoria-era diseases are on the rise in England