On Marxism-Leninism

[mojo pixy]

9. Keep Left!

 

[Pickman's model]

Proven it was possible by Lenin's Bolsheviks who overthrew the Kerenskyite opportunists who were trying to sabotage the chance of a workers' revolution in 1917. Proven it was by Tito with his national liberation of Yugoslavia mostly on own without Allied help until 1943 and 1944. Castro managed to make Cuba stay firm against all odds from the US imperialists. Are these not the proofs that socialism did prevail against odds?

They don't really prove m-l is true socialism, in comparison to other socialisms. But where stands the ussr now? Where is yugoslavia?

 

[Yugoslav]

Could you elaborate on what Marx said about the dictatorship of the proletariat as it's my understanding it wasn't a major aspect of his work. Certainly not sufficient to be number 1, the most important thing.

Marx and Engels first theorized that the dictatorship of the proletariat was necessary in order to achieve communism.

 

[A380]

I think you got no. 6 wrong.

My robot and giant friends beg to differ

 

[kebabking]

...7. Never wear brown shoes in town

Well that just proves it's utter pish...

 

[Puddy_Tat]

So when I'm lying in my bed
Thoughts running through my head
And I feel that socialism is dead
I'm loving engels instead

 

[A380]

.... Where is yugoslavia?

Beats me, have you tried looking down the back of the sofa?

 

[PTK]

I agree. Yugoslavia was the closest to socialist perfection. Still the neoliberal IMF loans and the inner nationalism conducted by the Serbian bourgeoisie fucked it up in the end. Should have gone with Dolanc and you wouldn't have dealt with Milosevic that badly.

"the Serbian bourgeoisie"? I thought that it was the Dictatorship of the Proletariat?

 

[planetgeli]

fellow anti-revisionist socialist like me and the rest of the unheard MLs, ostracized by the opportunists?

Hundreds of PMs of support comrade.

For I am very clear with what I am doing with the quotations. I am presenting the obvious, primary, and solid evidence that socialism is not what many in the West think it is and that they're all, by default, opportunistic and revisionistic.

Is that from How to Win Friends and Influence People?

 

[danny la rouge]

Mine:

1. Participatory workers’ councils set up in place of community councils/parish councils.
2. Workplace councils in place of management.
3. These federated.
4. Palaces divided into flats.
5. Houses of Parliament made into stables. Even though nobody rides horses.
6. Public schools abolished. The buildings used as galleries of insulting cartoons of people in Bullingdon attire.
7. Free espresso for all.
8. Volvos for A380
9. Fleetwood Mac to be wiped from the archives. Anyone claiming they existed to be ridiculed.
10. Leaf coriander (cilantro) abolished. People professing a like for it may grow it in their own gardens for personal use only, if they agree to be sterilised.

 

[Peter Norf]

So when I'm lying in my bed
Thoughts running through my head
And I feel that socialism is dead
I'm loving engels instead

Apparently Robbie is adamant that that Guy fella never wrote that

 

[PTK]

Just read the ML theory. It's not that hard. In details you get to learn the following:

1. Dictatorship of the Proletariat
2. Revolution is the only way for socialism
3. The vanguard serves the proletariat only!
4. A state cannot be abolished and will wither away only if capitalism is eradicated
5. The end goal is abolishing of classes and capitalism, followed by the gradual dissolution of the state apparatus
6. From each according to their needs to each according to their abilities
7. Reformism, revisionism, and opportunism are dangerous to the true socialism

"From each according to their needs to each according to their abilities"
You have got that the wrong way round. It according to abilities to according to need.

 

[Pickman's model]

"From each according to their needs to each according to their abilities"
You have got that the wrong way round. It according to abilities to according to need.

In his head that's how it works

 

[burtabraham]

Leaf coriander (cilantro) abolished. People professing a like for it may grow it in their own gardens for personal use only, if they agree to be sterilised.

Your terms are acceptable

 

[kebabking]

Mine:

..8. Volvos for A380...

Sounds like a nacient Nomenklatura Comrade...

 

[danny la rouge]

Sounds like a nacient Nomenklatura Comrade...
View attachment 447108

I just think he’d appreciate them. It’s nice to be nice.

 

[Sue]

It’s nice to be nice.

10. Leaf coriander (cilantro) abolished. People professing a like for it may grow it in their own gardens for personal use only, if they agree to be sterilised.

 

[danny la rouge]

That’s nice. For them in the short term; for everyone in the long term.

 

[PTK]

The working class, or proletariat, was in power in Yugoslavia for more than forty years, it is claimed. How, then, can it be explained that new bourgeoisies came to power in each Yugoslav republic, and working class people supported the nascent bourgeoisie in engaging in horrific nationalist slaughter?

I know that there were creditable examples of workers acting against the nationalist slaughter, but they were a very small minority.

It cannot be claimed that Yugoslavia was actually a proletarian state when it could fall apart without large-scaled proletarian opposition to the break-up. The very state that was supposedly a state based on the proletariat was complicit in the slaughter of working class people on all sides.

Yugoslavia, like other similar states claiming to be ruled by the proletariat, actually de-politicised the proletariat.

 

[PTK]

Pannekoek's History of Astronomy is an excellent read and sits proudly on my bookshelf.

I'd forgotten that I had bought it! That is how much of a decadent anarcho-Fabian I am.

 

[PTK]

Please, and I am naming names, do not mention Marillion again.
I am sure she never even looked at him twice, and certainly never had here heart broken by the person with a silly name. I see he is the drummer now.

 

[hitmouse]

I'm not so good with the atheistic parts

I suppose Marian-Leninism would be more your cup of tea?

Pannekoek's History of Astronomy is an excellent read and sits proudly on my bookshelf.

Was Gorter's poetry much cop?

 

[Serge Forward]

I suppose Marian-Leninism would be more your cup of tea?

Was Gorter's poetry much cop?

Moon and June stuff with a bit of proletarian revolution chucked in. Probably.

 

[hitmouse]

The working class, or proletariat, was in power in Yugoslavia for more than forty years, it is claimed. How, then, can it be explained that new bourgeoisies came to power in each Yugoslav republic, and working class people supported the nascent bourgeoisie in engaging in horrific nationalist slaughter?

I know that there were creditable examples of workers acting against the nationalist slaughter, but they were a very small minority.

It cannot be claimed that Yugoslavia was actually a proletarian state when it could fall apart without large-scaled proletarian opposition to the break-up. The very state that was supposedly a state based on the proletariat was complicit in the slaughter of working class people on all sides.

Yugoslavia, like other similar states claiming to be ruled by the proletariat, actually de-politicised the proletariat.

Listened to an interesting interview with the editors of the Balkan anarchist journal Antipolitika a while back, they had quite a lot to say about how the Yugoslav CP actually nurtured national rivalries due to Stalinist ideas about the importance of nationalism. If anyone fancies tracking down a copy of Antipolitika #3, that's got a lengthy article about the Communist Party of Yugoslavia and nationalism in it.

 

[Serge Forward]

May by Herman Gorter: Herman Gorter - Poems by the Famous Poet - All Poetry
It's translated into English so it probably loses something from the original Flemish.

 

[planetgeli]

It cannot be claimed that Yugoslavia was actually a proletarian state when it could fall apart without large-scaled proletarian opposition to the break-up.

Revisionists and opportunists my friend. They ostracized us.

engaging in horrific nationalist slaughter?

Yep, but #notallslavs

Slovenia had about 11 deaths then packed it in. A Slovenian once said to me, at 2am when we were pissed enough for me to dare ask him about the war; "In the war...I played tennis."

Which was both funny and not what I was expecting at all. Maybe you had to be there. Pissed. At 2am.

They did mention a funny story how all the NATO planes used to scream up to the border (where they were) and then do a sharp turn because they were banned from Slovenian airspace. Rules. Keep it clean lads.

 

[8ball]

Mine:

1. Participatory workers’ councils set up in place of community councils/parish councils.
2. Workplace councils in place of management.
3. These federated.
4. Palaces divided into flats.
5. Houses of Parliament made into stables. Even though nobody rides horses.
6. Public schools abolished. The buildings used as galleries of insulting cartoons of people in Bullingdon attire.
7. Free espresso for all.
8. Volvos for A380
9. Fleetwood Mac to be wiped from the archives. Anyone claiming they existed to be ridiculed.
10. Leaf coriander (cilantro) abolished. People professing a like for it may grow it in their own gardens for personal use only, if they agree to be sterilised.

On the whole, I like these, though ime if point 2 was ever put in place, half the staff would leave due to lack of management advancement opportunities and the other half would squabble among themselves over who got to be the new management.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I haven't seen words like 'deviationism' for ages. Really takes me back to the good old days. Revisionism too. And the bourgeoisie- they're bloody everywhere aren't they?

 

[A380]

The working class, or proletariat, was in power in Yugoslavia for more than forty years, it is claimed. How, then, can it be explained that new bourgeoisies came to power in each Yugoslav republic, and working class people supported the nascent bourgeoisie in engaging in horrific nationalist slaughter?

I know that there were creditable examples of workers acting against the nationalist slaughter, but they were a very small minority.

It cannot be claimed that Yugoslavia was actually a proletarian state when it could fall apart without large-scaled proletarian opposition to the break-up. The very state that was supposedly a state based on the proletariat was complicit in the slaughter of working class people on all sides.

Yugoslavia, like other similar states claiming to be ruled by the proletariat, actually de-politicised the proletariat.

NATO’s fault?

 

[belboid]

Mine:

1. Participatory workers’ councils set up in place of community councils/parish councils.
2. Workplace councils in place of management.
3. These federated.
4. Palaces divided into flats.
5. Houses of Parliament made into stables. Even though nobody rides horses.
6. Public schools abolished. The buildings used as galleries of insulting cartoons of people in Bullingdon attire.
7. Free espresso for all.
8. Volvos for A380
9. Fleetwood Mac to be wiped from the archives. Anyone claiming they existed to be ridiculed.
10. Leaf coriander (cilantro) abolished. People professing a like for it may grow it in their own gardens for personal use only, if they agree to be sterilised.

Numbers 1 and 2 were the key (constitutional) features of Tito's Yugoslavia, replacing sections on democratic centralism. There is some really quite interesting discussion to be had about their attempt to forge a different path, their attempts to workers self-management (which wasn't all just theoretical) in particular.