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Reading Marx's 'Capital': Tips, Questions, Theory, Support and Bookclub Bunfight...

And if I understand correctly it's one of those dialectical processes - social changes lead to the domination of the commodity form and that in turn accelerates the change in social relations and cements a new mode of the relations of production, alluded to here I think:
In the social production of their life, men enter into definite relations that are indispensable and independent of their will, relations of production which correspond to a definite stage of development of their material productive forces. The sum total of these relations of production constitutes the economic structure of society, the real foundation, on which rises a legal and political superstructure and to which correspond definite forms of social consciousness.

The mode of production of material life conditions the social, political and intellectual life process in general. It is not the consciousness of men that determines their being, but, on the contrary, their social being that determines their consciousness.

At a certain stage of their development, the material productive forces of society come in conflict with the existing relations of production, or — what is but a legal expression for the same thing — with the property relations within which they have been at work hitherto. From forms of development of the productive forces these relations turn into their fetters.
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Economic Manuscripts: A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy (Preface Abstract)
 
danny la rouge said:
That's what I was trying to answer. A capitalist produces a commodity for its exchange-value. But it doesn't make sense to say that's its use-value to the capitalist; it's its exchange-value.
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I don't see why as a conceptual matter use value cannot sometimes coincide with a commodity's exchange value. Think about this example: say I have an old chair that I never use: i don't like how it looks, it's not comfortable and it takes up much needed space in my apartment. Someone says to me 'why haven't you chucked it in the skip?' and I reply 'I am hoping to sell it'. In other words, I am keeping the chair because I want to exchange it for money. That's its *use value* to me: that later on it might earn me some money. It's useful to have something that I can earn money from in the future, and the more money I can make from it, the more useful it is to me.

The same applies to the production of a commodity. The commodity has a use value to the capitalist and that use value is that it can be sold for profit. Hence use value is reducible to exchange value.
 
I really enjoyed the very beginning (of chapter 1) last night but its a book that needs to be read with a pencil at the ready isn't it.
One question that popped up immediately when he's explaining how a thing's exchange value is based on the amount of undifferentiated human labour-time needed to produce it was branded goods eg) gucci sunglasses produced in the very same factory as the ones that sell for £5. But maybe that's a separate issue as they have, to the people who buy them, a different use value.
 
Jeff Robinson said:
I don't see why as a conceptual matter use value cannot sometimes coincide with a commodity's exchange value. Think about this example: say I have an old chair that I never use: i don't like how it looks, it's not comfortable and it takes up much needed space in my apartment. Someone says to me 'why haven't you chucked it in the skip?' and I reply 'I am hoping to sell it'. In other words, I am keeping the chair because I want to exchange it for money. That's its *use value* to me: that later on it might earn me some money. It's useful to have something that I can earn money from in the future, and the more money I can make from it, the more useful it is to me.

The same applies to the production of a commodity. The commodity has a use value to the capitalist and that use value is that it can be sold for profit. Hence use value is reducible to exchange value.
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I understand your extrapolation, but it's a misuse of the term. Marx explains in chapter one that use-value is to be thought of as realised only in the process of consumption. He takes some time to establish the distinction between use-value and exchange-value. So, if you want to understand Marx, you're going to have to accept that he sees them as distinct.
 
Jeff Robinson said:
I don't see why as a conceptual matter use value cannot sometimes coincide with a commodity's exchange value. Think about this example: say I have an old chair that I never use: i don't like how it looks, it's not comfortable and it takes up much needed space in my apartment. Someone says to me 'why haven't you chucked it in the skip?' and I reply 'I am hoping to sell it'. In other words, I am keeping the chair because I want to exchange it for money. That's its *use value* to me: that later on it might earn me some money. It's useful to have something that I can earn money from in the future, and the more money I can make from it, the more useful it is to me.

The same applies to the production of a commodity. The commodity has a use value to the capitalist and that use value is that it can be sold for profit. Hence use value is reducible to exchange value.
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Use value is social, such that the chair has a use value regardless of its utility you you. And Marx was clear about use value being an aspect of its physical existence, realised in consumption.
 
bimble said:
I really enjoyed the very beginning (of chapter 1) last night but its a book that needs to be read with a pencil at the ready isn't it.
One question that popped up immediately when he's explaining how a thing's exchange value is based on the amount of undifferentiated human labour-time needed to produce it was branded goods eg) gucci sunglasses produced in the very same factory as the ones that sell for £5. But maybe that's a separate issue as they have, to the people who buy them, a different use value.
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A good question!

I’d say that the Gucci sunglasses probably include more expensive materials than the £5 one’s. So more Labour has gone into producing the means of production before they get to the sunglasses factory.

And the Gucci logo. Which a lot of labour has gone into making an important thing. That’s a bit of a weird one though. :)
 
Fozzie Bear said:
A good question!

I’d say that the Gucci sunglasses probably include more expensive materials than the £5 one’s. So more Labour has gone into producing the means of production before they get to the sunglasses factory.

And the Gucci logo. Which a lot of labour has gone into making an important thing. That’s a bit of a weird one though. :)
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They don't (they are made of the same materials). But the labour of advertising to create the brand is a big thing, and then they do have a different use value - separate from keeping sun out of your eyes (?)
 
The thing is he takes the reader through this step by step. He wants you to get what he means by each concept before showing how he derives the next. It's a process of building up the argument.

In this thread, as in previous threads, the first three chapters are where all the questions (and misunderstandings) occur.
 
bimble said:
Can you expand a bit - What's the difference between exchange value and price? Or maybe I should save questions till i've read a bit more.
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That's something known as the transformation problem. He comes on to price in more detail in volume 3. Maybe park it until then, and work through it bit-by-bit
 
Did you stick with it then bimble? I found the first few chapters the most hard-going, I think.

I haven't given up yet! It'll all be over by Christmas, I told myself last year. Turns out i'm still going. But finally got back to it, and pacing through wages about to start Part Seven, accumulation of capital. Tbf I read all the Marx and Engels prefaces and introductions recently which took a while and was very interesting. Only taken me 6!! years to get this far though!

Will have to watch some of the David Harvey videos and check his book out again as there were some bits of Part Six I found quite dense and hard to understand.

I can see what people mean about different bits flowing into each other and it being a gripping read, though. As long as you persevere!
 
Ha ha ha so apparently it took me a year and a half (!) to read Part Seven... just finished earlier. Tbf it is bloody long and I stopped for a while (obvs). What a grim but amazing chapter! Now just starting Part 8... I aim to finally finish Capital Vol 1 this week! Over 7 years at it! Then will obvs need to read the "Results" missing chapter 6... just saw how bloody long that too :D

I can honestly say to those tempted or those who have given up but want to try again... It's a really amazing and engaging book once you get into it. And honestly I think you can read it without a guide or anyone explaining it (although that may help and I like Harvey's videos).

One of the gems in all of the numerous interesting prefaces to the penguin edition is this letter and contains this warning (regarding "rushing" to get to the conclusion, I guess) :thumbs:

There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits.
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Riklet said:
So I finished Vol 1, including all the footnotes prefaces etc (which id really recommend). Only took 7 years but def worth it! Doesnt exactly end with a bang though haha.

Reading the resultate section now and wondering what to go onto next!
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Surely Vol 2? ;)
 
A few of us are just about to start a small reading group for this. Two hours fortnightly. We're starting on Chapter 26 as has been recommended by quite a few people. Between meetings the idea is to read the relevant chapter and watch the Harvey video, then have a meeting with notes from them for discussion. Just re-reading Cleaver before we start as a refresher.

I want it all to be over by autumn 2021 at the latest please!
 
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Reading group and peer support sounds like a good idea but does rely on discipline.

Has anyone else used Fine and Saad-Filho's guide to help them? Updated in 2016 and some really interesting insights in the bits I've read. Tbf its not a chapter to chapter guide like Harveys one though.

Honestly I think starting anywhere with Capital is fine. I can see the argument for skipping the first few chapters then going back to them. Can also see the logic in starting from the beginning but reading fairly quickly and then going back for clarification.
 
I just picked up Cleavers 33 lessons. I’m aiming to read it alongside Capital vol1 start of next year and aiming to finish it by the end of the year.

I knocked the drink on the head last New Year’s Day, so Im going to make reading this my New Year’s resolution.
 
LynnDoyleCooper said:
A few of us are just about to start a small reading group for this. Two hours fortnightly. We're starting on Chapter 26 as has been recommended by quite a few people. Between meetings the idea is to read the relevant chapter and watch the Harvey video, then have a meeting with notes from them for discussion. Just re-reading Cleaver before we start as a refresher.

I want it all to be over by autumn 2021 at the latest please!
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How you getting on with this LDC?
 
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redsquirrel said:
How you getting on with this LDC?
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Sorry, missed this redsquirrel Yeah, it was good thanks. We did the thing of starting with Chapters 26 and 27 and had our first discussion on them this week.

Meeting fortnightly for 2 hours in a quiet local pub. Doing Chapters 28, 29, and 30 for the next one. I'm reading The Origin of Capitalism by EMW alongside these chapters and watching the related Harvey lecture and the odd Youtube cartoon clip on things like feudalism etc.
 
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