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Re-opening Schools?

If I had a sniffle with headache or fatigue I'd definitely be concerned, but not just a sniffle, which is how almost all my colds start. Just before lockdown I had a weird, fatiguing bug that went on and off for over a fortnight and I'm still not certain that it wasn't COVID - again, had it been a standard cold, would have thought nothing of it, but it was an unusual bug and I get plenty of bugs, and I've certainly heard of people's C19 starting as my virus was, only I never developed a cough.

Daughter had a cold about a fortnight ago, so I kept checking her temperature just in case, but it was just a cold.
 
quimcunx said:
It was Inside Science from BBC4. The top 5 for under 18s according to Tim Spector of the app fame are headache, fatigue, fever, sore throat and skipping meals. Skin rashes in younger children quite common before or after other symptoms.
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Cloo said:
I think if it feels like an ordinary cold (blocked nose, sneezing, maybe sore throat), then it is a cold. Coronavirus may seem to have a zillion symptoms, but luckily blocked nose and sneezing don't seem to be part of it.
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See above.
FTR my colds rarely start with a stuffed nose.
 
zahir : there's some pretty hard-core science in that article you quoted (foot of pevious thread-page) .... which is why I was only really able to digest your summary of it .... :oops: ;)

So, does the BMJ full version discuss what proportion of children getting Covid have to be admitted to hospital?
That is, what numbers of kids, what other conditions those admitted are prone to suffering from more generally, etc.??

Surely all that is pretty relevant ..... :confused:
 
The article gives some figures in the introduction but the main point is that the proportion admitted to hospital will be very small. I’m not sure how far the symptoms listed will correspond to symptoms in the vast majority of children who don’t get seriously ill. Children can also get long Covid, without necessarily getting ill enough to be hospitalised, and I’m not sure how common this is.
 
zahir said:
The article gives some figures in the introduction but the main point is that the proportion admitted to hospital will be very small. I’m not sure how far the symptoms listed will correspond to symptoms in the vast majority of children who don’t get seriously ill. Children can also get long Covid, without necessarily getting ill enough to be hospitalised, and I’m not sure how common this is.
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Thanks for that -- you are getting at what I was wondering about, but I do understand that there's a fair lack of clarity here.
 
There are often not concrete, solid answers to all of this stuff. Decisions made about which symptoms are included is often a balancing act, and the balance may be considered differently in winter. Authorities may also be slow to make changes, eg we saw it took them rather a long time to add loss of sense of taste & smell to the official symptoms list.

It is one thing when the list of official symptoms is taken for what it is, not a definitive guide. Unfortunately as we saw with things like the criteria for what counts as a close contact, these somewhat arbitrary rules that are chosen for practical reasons rather than being absolute truths, are often then treated like the gospel by some parts of the system, and decisions are made as if the virus itself respects these rules.

It turns out I only have to look as far as some page on the Mayo Clinics website to see where things can get fuzzy and where the current UK approach could come unstuck.

Children's COVID-19 symptoms

While children and adults experience similar symptoms of COVID-19, children's symptoms tend to be mild and cold-like. Most children recover within one to two weeks. Their symptoms can include:
  • Fever
  • Nasal congestion or runny nose
  • Cough
  • Sore throat
  • Shortness of breath
  • Fatigue
  • Headache
  • Muscle aches
  • Nausea or vomiting
  • Diarrhea
  • Poor feeding or poor appetite
Click to expand...

www.mayoclinic.org

How COVID-19 affects babies and children

Know the symptoms of COVID-19 in children, what to do if your child appears sick and how to keep your family healthy.
www.mayoclinic.org www.mayoclinic.org
 
I thank Waits that my region is the least affected in the UK. I know it's induction and enrolment and most students in the college are new and unfamiliar with everything but there's not enough distancing and staff aren't enforcing the guidelines. I cannot see how cases in the education system aren't going to rocket in the next few weeks.
 
zahir said:
The article gives some figures in the introduction but the main point is that the proportion admitted to hospital will be very small. I’m not sure how far the symptoms listed will correspond to symptoms in the vast majority of children who don’t get seriously ill. Children can also get long Covid, without necessarily getting ill enough to be hospitalised, and I’m not sure how common this is.
Click to expand...

Theres another study which is making the news. This one looked at children of NHS workers, antibodies and symptoms, and none of the people involved required hospitalisation.


This sort of study and the associated headlines is likely to generate some pressure to change the symptoms criteria, but it wont be snotty cold symptoms that are the focus, it will be digestive system stuff:

www.bbc.co.uk

Coronavirus: 'Add upset stomach in children to symptoms'

Researchers say it may be worth adding diarrhoea and vomiting to the list of symptoms.
www.bbc.co.uk
 
I’ve had two childminders today tell me they’re not excluding children with “just a cough” and one not excluding for temperatures if it could be teething or comes down with calpol :rolleyes: “You just have to make a judgement/use your common sense”
 
The good news is the L.A has actually supplied masks, they arrived today.

The bad news is that despite the Welsh 53 page guidance relying heavily, to the point of almost totally, on the concept of social distancing our second in command today stated that the pupils will not be expected at all to socially distance.

Tbf a few of the kids did turn up in masks today and a couple even wore them throughout. So far, out of 20+ staff, I can count easily on one hand the number of staff I've seen wearing one. Definitely a fatalistic attitude combined with an 'it's all over isn't it?' mindset from some. Rules not being enforced even among staff and it feels like everyone for him/herself right now.

It will end in tears. Really hasn't helped we are one of the least affected places in the U.K, that's just made 80% of people complacent.
 
Apart from hand washing/sanitising and masks I don't really see the point in all of this. Bubbles don't work in secondaries because teachers teach everyone and in primary siblings mean a mixing of bubbles anyway (and the bubbles are so huge). Staggered start and finish times still mean lots of parents congregated and then some of those move to a different group to get the sibling. And really if somone were to get it in a school, you can't imagine these measures would prevent it from properly spreading.
It all feels like a load of extra work for inefficient protections. I doubt anything short of closing schools will properly keep the numbers down, but I don't want that either.
 
nagapie said:
Apart from hand washing/sanitising and masks I don't really see the point in all of this. Bubbles don't work in secondaries because teachers teach everyone and in primary siblings mean a mixing of bubbles anyway (and the bubbles are so huge). Staggered start and finish times still mean lots of parents congregated and then some of those move to a different group to get the sibling. And really if somone were to get it in a school, you can't imagine these measures would prevent it from properly spreading.
It all feels like a load of extra work for inefficient protections. I doubt anything short of closing schools will properly keep the numbers down, but I don't want that either.
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I know exactly what you mean. I’m clinicall vulnerable on two counts and if I get this it could well be really grim... but online teaching only really worked for a proportion of students (a smaller proportion as the kids get younger) and anyway I do think schools, for all the stress and peer-group friction are a valuable part of social developmemt for about 90% of kids.

I can’t bear the thought of more closures - even while I know the dangers are very real, not least to myself. I kind of have this irrational, magical-thinking idea that if we all tell ourselves that the c-19 situation is over, then it will be. Because that’s what I want to happen. But it isn’t is it? And there’s a bloody high chance I’m going to get this thing before there’s a vaccine, and a small but still significant chance that I’ll die if I do.

But I don’t know what we can do differently.
 
spanglechick : My immediate reaction to your post (posting as an outsider and non-teecher, admittedly :oops: ) is that you should not be authorised to be back at work at all?? :confused: :(

I really hope I'm wrong, and I really hope that you avoid contracting anything. Good luck :)
 
spanglechick said:
And there’s a bloody high chance I’m going to get this thing before there’s a vaccine, and a small but still significant chance that I’ll die if I do.

But I don’t know what we can do differently.
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I don't know your underlying conditions but I definitely feel in the same boat. I've had cancer and within the last fortnight have acquired a new auto-immune condition so my immune system is compromised.

I too don't have an answer but feel like we need to at least try and stand by the rules and regulations as outlined. And that just isn't happening as people slide towards your earlier comment about the irrational magical thinking it is all over. (I acknowledge you know the reality of this thought).

Frankly, it's pissing me off and I do feel like my life/death is being played with. 53 pages of 'advisory' from my government, all but ignored the second we got back. Not that the advice was brilliant in the first place. Markings all over the school floors which we are now told don't apply to the kids.

The irony is the kids ARE taking it more seriously than the staff, quite a few of them now telling me they have vulnerable parents/carers/siblings at home and they respect that. Most of the staff, not having to live with anyone vulnerable, pretending it's all over or it won't affect them.

The last few days have made me really proud of quite a few of the kids I work with. At least they are trying in difficult circumstances.

Adults not so much.
 
planetgeli said:
I don't know your underlying conditions but I definitely feel in the same boat. I've had cancer and within the last fortnight have acquired a new auto-immune condition so my immune system is compromised.

I too don't have an answer but feel like we need to at least try and stand by the rules and regulations as outlined. And that just isn't happening as people slide towards your earlier comment about the irrational magical thinking it is all over. (I acknowledge you know the reality of this thought).

Frankly, it's pissing me off and I do feel like my life/death is being played with. 53 pages of 'advisory' from my government, all but ignored the second we got back. Not that the advice was brilliant in the first place. Markings all over the school floors which we are now told don't apply to the kids.

The irony is the kids ARE taking it more seriously than the staff, quite a few of them now telling me they have vulnerable parents/carers/siblings at home and they respect that. Most of the staff, not having to live with anyone vulnerable, pretending it's all over or it won't affect them.

The last few days have made me really proud of quite a few of the kids I work with. At least they are trying in difficult circumstances.

Adults not so much.
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I have lower-category vulnerabilities. I’m obese but most seriously I have a chronic neurological condition.

I’m not in the category to continue shielding at home, and if I’m back, (and I don’t want to be stuck at home trying to make myself useful remotely) then it’s hard to see how I can make it meaningfully safer.
 
This week’s Independent Sage briefing, posted on this thread as it mainly deals with schools. In my entirely non-expert opinion I get the feeling they may be underplaying the health risks to children, and that this may follow on from the position they have taken on wanting schools reopened.

 
Well risk is a numbers game, and there are plenty of ways that they can talk about low risks to children without lying.

Sense of risk is also a personal thing and I doubt most people come up with a sense of risk based on numbers such as probability estimates alone. So, aside from the various moments where I thought it was appropriate to say things to get people to take various aspects of this pandemic seriously, I've not tended to attempt to strongly influence peoples sense of risk that this virus poses to particular individuals. After all, numbers are not going to be any consolation to those who do end up with children who suffer more profoundly.

I suppose I would go as far as to say that the relatively low risk to children is why I am more likely to focus on the broader risks from schools opening in this pandemic, ie its influence on the overall spread, adult contact patterns etc.
 
Middlesbrough is now on the watchlist and has already reached the point where some towns in Greater Manhcester were locked down. Schools in and around Middlesbrough are back this/next week and the University freshers week is just over a fortnight away, with significant amounts of on campus teaching. Well, wonder how that will all pan out...
 
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