Re-opening Schools?

[elbows]

For some strange reason I dont find this reassuring:

More than one in 10 pupils in Scotland were absent from school last week - but the Scottish government said other winter infections, and not coronavirus, are to blame.

Only about 21,000 of the 73,000 absences at the end of last week were recorded as Covid-related, with ministers saying it was common for other viral infections to spread after a "prolonged break" from school.

Covid-related absences include "a positive test, showing symptoms, self-isolation, quarantining, and parents not sending their child to school against public health guidance".

The Scottish government has said it is important for parents to be able to distinguish between possible Covid-19 symptoms - a new, continuous cough, a high temperature or a loss of smell or taste - and other winter infections, so children do not stay off school unnecessarily.

I'm afraid I was reduced to laughter when I read that.

From BBC live updates page at https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-53981717

 

[Wilf]

Inset day. Was alright but despite the rules of no more than 5 in a room there were pretty quickly 10 or 11 staff in the staffroom. Also, out of about 20 staff (possibly more) only 2 of us wore masks. We've been asked to wear visors rather than masks with the kids. School have provided them. They're shit. I'll be wearing my mask.

I also do not give it long before it collapses into chaos. Cases rising in surrounding countries. Somehow (via wishful thinking probably) a lot of our staff seem oblivious to this. I even heard one "I can't go through all that again." Well you're probably going to have to...

Yep, I work at a university and will be doing perhaps 1/3 of my teaching on campus the rest staying online. We are just about at the point where we hear what the on campus bit is supposed to be like and then have to go away and prepare the whole thing in 3 weeks. We''ll be doing this knowing full well it will collapse due to it just being shit and badly organised or, more likely, a surge in cases in universities/my university/local schools. Such a fucking shambles, waste of time and way to piss students off. Oh, and a perfect little mechanism for spreading covid.

 

[8ball]

When I spoke on the phone to a GP about possible Covid symptoms, she mentioned that probably more than half of those testing positive were showing symptoms that were atypical in some way (hence recommending I get tested).

... so that bit from the Scottish Govt is a little worrying to me too.

 

[quimcunx]

The podcast I was listening to the other day had someone on saying symptoms for children appear to be temp headache loss of appetite sore throat. I should check that rather than trust my memory. It was bbc more or less I think.

 

[8ball]

The podcast I was listening to the other day had someone on saying symptoms for children appear to be temp headache loss of appetite sore throat. I should check that rather than trust my memory. It was bbc more or less I think.

So the Scottish Govt has got people looking out for the wrong thing? This just gets better.

(though NHS website is listing the same symptoms as the Scottish Govt listed)

 

[quimcunx]

So the Scottish Govt has got people looking out for the wrong thing? This just gets better.

(though NHS website is listing the same symptoms as the Scottish Govt listed)

Tbf its emerging evidence. As with all covid stuff. But yeah. Not great.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Have I missed something there? Surely if your kid has the symptoms of any kind of a chest infection or even just sniffles, you get them tested for C-19? That's what the shiny big testing capacity is for, no?

 

[8ball]

Have I missed something there? Surely if your kid has the symptoms of any kind of a chest infection or even just sniffles, you get them tested for C-19? That's what the shiny big testing capacity is for, no?

This is pretty much what I thought the state of affairs was. Anything resembling a respiratory infection and you self-isolate, wasn't it?
As opposed to "nah, probably just a cold, might as well go in...".

 

[quimcunx]

Have I missed something there? Surely if your kid has the symptoms of any kind of a chest infection or even just sniffles, you get them tested for C-19? That's what the shiny big testing capacity is for, no?

I look forward to the queues on the telly box news when several million school children get tested a week. Maybe there will be special buses to keep them seperate from all the commuters sent back to work to buy sandwiches from Pret.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I look forward to the queues on the telly box news when several million school children get tested a week. Maybe there will be special buses to keep them seperate from all the commuters sent back to buy sandwiches from Pret.

Well of course there is that. Schools could organise it, though. But asking people to self-diagnose is bonkers.

It's almost as if they're telling fibs when they make out that there is nearly 200,000 per day spare testing capacity atm.

 

[sheothebudworths]

Well of course there is that. Schools could organise it, though. But asking people to self-diagnose is bonkers.

It's almost as if they're telling fibs when they make out that there is nearly 200,000 per day spare testing capacity atm.

What, with the ten testing kits each school has been provided with?
If not, there's not much hope of it being funded separately when the new lot of covid grants the gov has promised for the autumn term still hasn't even appeared yet - meaning schools have already had to make decisions not to implement safety measures they currently need, due to having no budget left.

 

[quimcunx]

The podcast I was listening to the other day had someone on saying symptoms for children appear to be temp headache loss of appetite sore throat. I should check that rather than trust my memory. It was bbc more or less I think.

It was Inside Science from BBC4. The top 5 for under 18s according to Tim Spector of the app fame are headache, fatigue, fever, sore throat and skipping meals. Skin rashes in younger children quite common before or after other symptoms.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It was Inside Science from BBC4. The top 5 for under 18s according to Tim Spector of the app fame are headache, fatigue, fever, sore throat and skipping meals. Skin rashes in young quite common before or after other symptoms.

And as the Zoe app makes very clear, not everyone exhibits every symptom. Far from it.

Almost like, in addition to fibbing about the testing capacity, they're also fibbing about 'following the science'.

 

[wtfftw]

Are we supposed to get tested for sniffles?

 

[clicker]

So 60 schoolkids on each bus going to and from school...who then bubble once they get to school. Public transport must have some magic non covid forcefield. Maybe we'd be safer living on buses.

 

[quimcunx]

I'm guessing we are not set up to do this but if you have 100 people you need to test you can put them in batches of 10 samples and test that with one test. If any of the 10 batches of 10 come back positive then you test those 10 individuals individually.

Not sure why I've not seen anything about this, whether it is possible or not, and if possible why we're not doing it for say factories and schools etc.

 

[quimcunx]

Are we supposed to get tested for sniffles?

I was going to post this in the general uk covid thread. Johnson wants us all back at work to buy sandwiches. But we're coming into cold season and once we're all mingling lurgies other than covid will also be making a comeback tour. Sniffles aren't a symptom of covid so I guess the answer to your question is no, but many colds and other lurgies don't necessarily start with sniffles, but maybe a headache, fatigue, sore throat etc. That's a lot of tests needed day in, day out and maybe sniffles is an atypical symptom for some. Almost the entire population gets at least one lurgy between october and march. That's potentially 361k tests a day, assuming people only get one lurgy each over that 6 months.

 

[wtfftw]

I'm on my second cold of the sniffles variety since nurseries reopened - June was it? I've not been tested - but no cough or fever etc.

I don't understand how it's going to work with winter. Like at all. I think you're probably on to something with the sample testing. Not that it will happen.

 

[ska invita]

According to this

Testing for COVID-19

Find out who can get free NHS tests, how to get tested, and what your test result means.

www.nhs.uk

You should only get a test if you have a fever, a continuous cough or loss of smell and taste

It explicitly says Don't get a test if you don't have those

 

[Chilli.s]

This bubble thing is an impossible to achieve buzz word ideal for self centered tories to bleat out at any question asked. About as effective as a chocolate teapot in the harsh reality of school.

 

[elbows]

Well of course there is that. Schools could organise it, though. But asking people to self-diagnose is bonkers.

It's almost as if they're telling fibs when they make out that there is nearly 200,000 per day spare testing capacity atm.

Well we only have to ask why they had to delay their care home testing plans to know that things are not great with regards capacity.

They have made noises in public that suggest they are aware of winter challenges including the need to get a testing system going that also includes testing for other viruses at the same time. I ont know when they will actually deliver such a thing at scale, and I suspect the scale will end up too limited to use it in every single scenario where it would ideally be used.

The statement from Scotland is ridiculous in many ways and if this attitude is applied more broadly throughout the whole winter than it could easily lead to doom.

As for the scale of the winter challenge, here is a clue in the form of a quote from a NERVTAG Birdtable meeting of 22nd May,

Box

app.box.com

Members discussed the levels of reports of fever or cough symptoms from the flu survey, in conjunction with other available data. AH agreed to provide data for a baseline by age from Bug Watch. Concerns were raised that the numbers being enlisted to carry out contact tracing is based on the number of predicted COVID-19 positive cases, but does not take into account cases of other respiratory diseases that will present with the same symptoms and will require screening. It is expected there would be ~100,000 influenza-like-illnesscases a day in summer and ~500,000 cases in the winter. The Chair agreed to raise the issue with Baroness Harding, with regards to the contact tracing arrangements. MR suggested that she could forward the concerns to the Boston Consulting Group for the Track & Trace.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Would the school aged you fake a cough or symptoms to get a couple of weeks off school?

A school-aged me would have gone out of my way to get it and spread around the building, with particular coughing fits near certain teachers (the list would be long, very long).

 

[elbows]

By the way since I first linked to some BBC news about the Scottish stuff they wrote a proper story about it that has a bit more detail.

Tens of thousands of Scottish pupils absent from school

More than 100,000 pupils are not in class - mostly for non-Covid reasons, official figures show.

www.bbc.co.uk

Including:

The Scottish government reported on Tuesday that almost 40,000 pupils had been tested for coronavirus since term started, with 117 positive results.

Speaking on Monday, Education Secretary John Swinney said it was common for "colds and similar viral infections to circulate" when pupils returned from a prolonged break.

Yes and I think we'll need to employ quite a strong form of doublethink in order to process that concept after all the weeks of reassurances about school safety.

"In many cases children will be well enough to attend school and continue their learning with little or no interruption to their education," he said.

"In other cases, for instance where they have quite a heavy cold with a runny nose, they may need to take a day or two off to recover."

He said any pupil with Covid-19 symptoms were required to self-isolate and seek a test.

But he added: "In order to ensure that your child does not miss out on their education it is important to be clear on how Covid-19 symptoms differ from those of other infections that we normally see circulating at this time of year."

Stay absurd.

 

[elbows]

I found the letter from the national clinical director to parents that the BBC article mentions.

NRS Web Continuity Service

www.gov.scot

We recommend testing only for those with a continuous cough, fever, or loss of or change in the sense of taste or smell. The UK senior clinicians continue to keep the symptoms for case definition under review and will continue to use evidence to adjust these if it becomes necessary.

If, however, your child does not have symptoms of COVID-19 but has other cold-like symptoms, such as a runny nose, they do not need to be tested and they and you do not need to self-isolate. Your child can go to school if fit to do so.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

By the way since I first linked to some BBC news about the Scottish stuff they wrote a proper story about it that has a bit more detail.

Tens of thousands of Scottish pupils absent from school

More than 100,000 pupils are not in class - mostly for non-Covid reasons, official figures show.

www.bbc.co.uk

Including:





Yes and I think we'll need to employ quite a strong form of doublethink in order to process that concept after all the weeks of reassurances about school safety.



Stay absurd.

The Scottish government reported on Tuesday that almost 40,000 pupils had been tested for coronavirus since term started, with 117 positive results.

<0.25%

Love that they say winter infections are common, in August! Just how cold is Scotland???

 

[elbows]

The BBC stuck the 'what if my child has a cold or cough' question at the top of this article, but it doesnt actually add anything to what we were discussing the other day.

How are Covid rules changing across UK schools?

The government's "Living with Covid" plan for England contains no additional measures for schools.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Cloo]

I think if it feels like an ordinary cold (blocked nose, sneezing, maybe sore throat), then it is a cold. Coronavirus may seem to have a zillion symptoms, but luckily blocked nose and sneezing don't seem to be part of it.

 

[zahir]

I think if it feels like an ordinary cold (blocked nose, sneezing, maybe sore throat), then it is a cold. Coronavirus may seem to have a zillion symptoms, but luckily blocked nose and sneezing don't seem to be part of it.

I thought I had a cold coming on but it turned out it wasn’t. My initial symptoms were tiredness and nasal congestion, but without a runny nose or sneezing. Symptoms vary from person to person though and I wouldn’t rely on sneezing being an indication that you haven’t got it. I’ve had a sore throat on and off but only some of the time. The nasal/sinus congestion has been consistent and is still there in week twelve. I haven’t had a cough. I might have had some loss of smell for a while later on but nothing I’d really have noticed if I hadn’t been looking out for it. I didn’t have a fever that I was aware of in the first ten days of symptoms but did have afterwards when I got seriously ill. I’d be very cautious about relying on the official list of symptoms, or assuming that something that seems untypical isn’t actually a covid symptom.

 

[elbows]

Symptoms in children are often more varied too. Its something I need to brush up my knowledge on in the coming days, will report back.

 

[zahir]

Here’s a study of children admitted to hospital.

Clinical characteristics of children and young people admitted to hospital with covid-19 in United Kingdom: prospective multicentre observational cohort study

Objective To characterise the clinical features of children and young people admitted to hospital with laboratory confirmed severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) infection in the UK and explore factors associated with admission to critical care, mortality, and development...

www.bmj.com

This is what it has to say about symptoms:

The most common presenting symptoms were fever (70%; 431/617), cough (39%; 233/599), nausea/vomiting (32%; 179/564), and shortness of breath (30%; 173/570) (fig 1). Fever and rhinorrhoea were less common with increasing age; however, nausea and vomiting, abdominal pain, headache, and sore throat showed an increasing trend with age (supplementary figure D). A heatmap and dendrogram of presenting symptoms showed three distinct clusters of clinical phenotypes (fig 2). These comprised most commonly a discrete respiratory illness (green cluster) of cough, fever, shortness of breath, runny nose, lower chest wall indrawing, and wheeze, with clustering of both upper and lower respiratory symptoms together. Next was a cluster representing a systemic mucocutaneous-enteric illness (purple cluster) of headache, myalgia, sore throat, vomiting, abdominal pain, diarrhoea, fatigue, rash, lymphadenopathy, and conjunctivitis. Finally, we observed a rarer neurological cluster of seizures and confusion (red cluster). The systemic mucocutaneous-enteric cluster includes the symptoms specified in the WHO preliminary case definition for MIS-C (“muco-cutaneous inflammation” and “acute gastrointestinal problems”), in addition to sore throat, myalgia, headache, and fatigue. The two main clusters “respiratory” and “systemic mucocutaneous-enteric” were not entirely dichotomous. Minor overlap occurred between a sub-cluster of “fever, cough, and shortness of breath” and a sub-cluster of “vomiting, abdominal pain, diarrhoea, fatigue, and rash” but very little overlap with “runny nose, wheeze, and lower chest wall indrawing.”