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Following on from this post: -
.... just testing the waters
(Poll to follow)
.... just testing the waters
(Poll to follow)
Proportional representation -- yea or nay?
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lopsidedbunny
Active Member
Yea ?
lopsidedbunny
Active Member
Don't forget neither option...
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Government by lot. 
dessiato
🇪🇸 my spirit is crying for leaving
On the surface of it I think it is a good idea. However, I think that the actual way it is implemented is critical to the value of such a system.
One of the politicians who is a student of mine, says that the system used here is so complicated that he couldn't explain how it works! He won his area, but, due to the way it works, did not get a seat, it went to the person who came second in the poll. Seems worse than the first past the post system. But the argument is that the people are better represented, although god alone knows how.
One of the politicians who is a student of mine, says that the system used here is so complicated that he couldn't explain how it works! He won his area, but, due to the way it works, did not get a seat, it went to the person who came second in the poll. Seems worse than the first past the post system. But the argument is that the people are better represented, although god alone knows how.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I'm guessing that is because of second prefs.
The system I would opt for if we have to continue with the charade of elections would be the stv – you basically end up with the least hated candidate being elected, which is the best most of us can reasonably hope for in any electoral system.
Personally, I would much prefer a parliament chosen by lot, much as juries are at present.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
The only people PR will change the game for is the lib-dems and the dominant interests they represent. The electoral system is not the main problem - the main problem is that society is run in the interests of a group of interlocking elites whose power is mainly in the economic sphere but whose also use a system of political legitimation to defend or extend their interests. This system of political legitimation stems from that economic dominance, it's a secondary feature. Changing it won't change the system - it'll just make the way legitimation occurs slightly different. What will happen under PR is that those dominant interests will adapt to the new system and make it its own as much as FPTP ever was - look at other countries with PR, the same interests dominant totally there, they're just elected differently. Labour, the tories and the lib-dems will sit on PR and leave zero room for anything else. If you really want democracy you should be calling for economic democracy not PR.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I basically agree with Butchers, except that I genuinely don't think we would have had that monetarist loon fucking up the country and trampling on democracy in the 1980s with pr. We also need a proper constitution, imo – at present, whoever becomes PM will govern with virtually dictatorial powers.
I voted but fell into the trap, because had I really not given a fuck I wouldn't have read the thread.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
Of course PR isn't a single step to socialist utopia. That would be absurd. but would it be better for every vote across the country for Greens or TUSC or Respect or SSP/Solidarity etc to count? or is it better that the 2/3 party system has an armlock over the voters for ever more?
I can understand people who dismiss all electoral intervention having a pop at PR too. but for EVERYONE else it is better than no change? Unless you wan't a tory government that is.
I can understand people who dismiss all electoral intervention having a pop at PR too. but for EVERYONE else it is better than no change? Unless you wan't a tory government that is.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
I couldn't give a fuck about a constitution either.
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out on the kocker
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
We would have had a coalition SDP/tory govt trying to do it.
re: 80s
re: 80s
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
Vote PR to keep the Tories out. That was quick.
aha - no, there's always the chance that centrist arseholes try to keep the right in power. But ultimately they will get punished for it.
the button
out on the kocker
A fully proportional system would have given the Nazis (BNP) 12 seats. Is that what you want? Is it? 
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
OK, but you wouldn't have had "New Labour" in 97
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
We wouldn't have need to. We'd have had it about 87.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
A fully proportional system would have given the Nazis (BNP) 12 seats. Is that what you want? Is it?
a) no one wants a "fully" proportional system - that is a Tory scare
b) FPTP means Barking now has NO opposition of any kind, whatsover, on the council. Is that what you want
?
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
and we wouldn't have had the poll tax. And a socialist alternative would have got off the ground c.92
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Why are you opposed to a fully proportional system? That's the only one i could ever imagine supporting.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
No, we'd have had the labour party introducing it.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
no - wouldn't have happened. Why would it?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Why wouldn't that same party adopt neo-liberalism in the 90s?
the button
out on the kocker
So, you'd rather have Nazis on Barking council than no opposition, and you're condemning the Israeli electoral system. Interesting.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Where are politicians perfectly accountable to the electorate? PR but not that PR.
1%er
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure what difference it would make however it was implemented.
Meet the new boss same as the old boss
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