Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i think you'll find that socialist appeal was a split from militant and that ken livingstone is not a member.
nice to see another well-informed attack on socialists though.
Privileged people calling less privileged people "stupid" doesn't seem to be working...
- Thread starter chilango
- Start date
nice to see another well-informed attack on socialists though.
Manter
Lunch Mob
Please let's not have the categorical syllogism argument again. I may not cope
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Please let's not have the categorical syllogism argument again. I may not cope
I don't know what "categorical syllogism" is I'm afraid, but if not doing it avoids repeating arguments we've already had then I'm on board with that...
Manter
Lunch Mob
Sorry toddler bedtime got in wayI don't know what "categorical syllogism" is I'm afraid, but if not doing it avoids repeating arguments we've already had then I'm on board with that...
It's the dogs/legs thing-
All dogs have four legs
This has for legs
This is a dog
So all Brexiters are not racists. But all racists were brexiters. It's slightly more problematic with trump voters as even the 'non-racists' were able to listen to all Mexicans are rapists and Muslims/Syrians are terrorists and go 'yup, fine with that'.... but the principle stands I guess
(When expressed as;
We must do something!
This is something
We must do this!
Is called the politician's fallacy.)
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
c4u
not sure you're right tho, wouldn't be surprised if there were a few auld mosleyites among the remainers.
Manter
Lunch Mob
Trust you to sort out my sentence
Is that a proper sentence? ^^
Oh god, now paralysed by crippling self doubt...
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
trust is in that sentence a verb, perhaps the imperativeTrust you to sort out my sentence
Is that a proper sentence? ^^
Oh god, now paralysed by crippling self doubt...
Manter
Lunch Mob
<<sob>>
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
nobody asks who is actually the paver do they? Is it supposed to Beelzebub&Sons of Darkness Inc. ? Its not going to be the actual prince of hell. Astaroth? does astaroth have shares in Jim'll Mix It construction firm?
we need to know. The main paver, not slab laying libs
we need to know. The main paver, not slab laying libs
Cid
Proper break this time
I think they've kept the Cones Hotline open so you can find out, there's just a risk you'll be trapped in it for eternity.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
What about those in the Labour party insisting that "some must be done about immigration", not racist? David Cameron the man who's government sent vans round telling people to shop immigrants to the authorities? The MPs who voted for wars that have left millions of dead and support the disgusting regime in Saudi Arabia? These people aren't racists?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
You're talking about a very small number of people in power. Manter, if I have her right, is talking about a large number of people not in power. You're talking about a totally different thing.
Also, is it ever going to end that whenever someone talks about racists and racism, someone else will jump in and say 'are you saying all xyz are racist'? 'No, I'm not, and I never even implied it.' It's fucking tiresome.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Good job I didn't say that then isn't it. I do agree that its fucking tiresome correcting people that misrepresent what you say though.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
No.
You made the point that "people need to be taken to task for the consequences of their racism".
I want to know who you mean here.
It's not an unreasonable question.
Neither were my others. Who should "take them to task"? how? and for what purpose?
Otherwise it's a bit of a vague "down with this sort of thing" rather than something concrete to actually do.
Purdie
there are no stars, only suns
You can only connect so far. Suppose I'm racist for daring to utter that
emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
I maintain that they only true anti-racist vote, was to vote leave or abstain. the EU is a rascist institution that promotes freedom of movement of mostly white and relative well of Europeans, but will leave Africans to drown by the thousand. How anyone can vote in favour of that and still call themselves anti-racist and pro immigration is beyond me.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Indeed and are we saying the CBI, IoD, Conservative Party, Labour Party, LibDems etc aren't racist institutions. Of course they are.
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
Because their policies and needs parallel those of the EU. The CBI uses the threat of mass migration to suppress wages and stokes resentment in the process, but has no interest in a system where people are let in, qualify for support and as true citizens end up joining in on pressing for better conditions/wages/government support/raised taxes on the rich. It's a desperate, pliant workforce they're after and systemic racism (as distinct from just shouting "I don't like black people" or something) provides that.
The Conservatives/Labour/Lib Dems meanwhile use border control as a lure to reactionary groups and a wedge to keep working class communities at each others' throats rather than punching upwards at the people with all the money. And most of their personal interests lie in roughly the same place as those of the CBI. British policy on Calais and the Med for the last 20 years largely speaks for itself, let alone the outright horrific response to Syria, or Labour's immigration mugs.
Mr Moose
What the hell are we supposed to tell the kids?
This simply brings us back to the lesser of two evils debate. I find the idea that outside of the EU the U.K. (or even the EU without the UK) would behave any less cruelly to refugees highly unlikely. But it's a point we can reasonably disagree on.
I don't find it a compelling argument for an endless slagging of progressives which is currently providing similarly endless comfort across the right.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
who can say? but they are, nonetheless.
no-no
Small robot you know
Wow, things have moved on a bit. I wasn't expecting an admission that mass migration has an effect on wages at all.
I'm still not sure their policies are race driven though, if we had a large influx of white migrants things would be played out much the same no? The Polish for example, I'm sure the same game could be played if we were to have a large influx of english speaking migrants too...americans or australians.
Having said that it might be a harder line to sell to the british public, people may well have more empathy if immigrants were largely white and english speaking.
I'm not confident that if we allowed migrants to become true citizens we would all start to punch up. There are other divides these cunts exploit, class, single mums,the unemployed, etc...but yes I see your point, race is one of the divides they are exploiting now.
The thing I don't get is. Say we managed to vote in a party that implemented a progressive tax system, mass migration and a path to citizenship. How long would it work considering other countries have such low living standards compard to our own? Surely everyone would flood into a country with decent working rights, fair pay and taxation, proper investment in services. That's pretty much where we are are now isn't it?
I'm still not sure their policies are race driven though, if we had a large influx of white migrants things would be played out much the same no? The Polish for example, I'm sure the same game could be played if we were to have a large influx of english speaking migrants too...americans or australians.
Having said that it might be a harder line to sell to the british public, people may well have more empathy if immigrants were largely white and english speaking.
I'm not confident that if we allowed migrants to become true citizens we would all start to punch up. There are other divides these cunts exploit, class, single mums,the unemployed, etc...but yes I see your point, race is one of the divides they are exploiting now.
The thing I don't get is. Say we managed to vote in a party that implemented a progressive tax system, mass migration and a path to citizenship. How long would it work considering other countries have such low living standards compard to our own? Surely everyone would flood into a country with decent working rights, fair pay and taxation, proper investment in services. That's pretty much where we are are now isn't it?
andysays
Love and solidarity
I'm inclined to agree with your first paragraph, but it's worth pointing out that the argument about the EU being racist eg in its treatment of non-Europeans is being brought up as a response to the on-going accusation from many "progressives" that those of us voting to leave the EU were either racist ourselves or at least supporting racists and racism.
The reality is that there is no absolute anti-racist moral high ground for anyone to claim in the EU or not debate, or the Republican or Democrat debate, or many others where it gets wheeled out by self-styled progressives attempting to demonise everyone on the other side to them.
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emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
Which is why I felt abstaining would have been a perfectly resanble position. I can understand not wanting to vote at all.
The British state, is the British in or out of the EU its nature does not change. We (sadly) were not given a vote on the nature of the British state, but were given the chance to vote against one rascist neo-liberal institution. And one difference between leave and remain is that a remain vote is a vote explicitly in fabour of something while a leave vote was not.
Nobody would claim that being outside the EU will automatically make thinks better. But future battles will be against only the British state, not the British state plus the EU.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
But who do you accuse of dealing in absolutes? It's pretty obvious that there is a relative difference between the Republican party and the Democratic party and between the In and Out campaigns when it comes to racism/anti-racism.
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
I dunno what you've been reading but I wasn't aware there was any "admission" going on, implying some sort of prior taboo? Pretty much everyone talks about the impact of migration on wages in some form or another, the Sun reckons it's all negative, the Guardian that it's all positive. If there is an admission to be made it's probably one for both liberals and rightists to say that reality is much more complex, nuanced and heavily warped by the official policies of governments, led by the machinations of commercial interests, than it's politically expedient to talk about.
It would be ludicrous, for example, to pretend that bosses never use the implicit threat of migrant labour to try and scare their employees into compliance, just as they use the threat of decamping overseas, or threats of inflation. The reality of whether that threat is really practicable and how it might manifest is something very different and will vary wildly on a case-by-case basis. It would also be ludicrous to imagine that governments don't, while talking every week about "securing borders," understand implicitly that they are unable to do so effectively while also maintaining economic stability, and therefore concentrate mainly on undermining the ability of new incomers to co-operate with existing citizens, to varying degrees of success but always with the outcome that vulnerable people get shat on.
Racism has no particular reason to be associated solely with skin colour. Britain's had No Dogs, No Blacks, No Irish signs out within living memory.
I was also careful to specifically note the difference between systemic racism and cultural or indivual racism, which you ignored. It is possible for a policy to be racist while never saying anything about race - eg. if you "close the border to undocumented migrant" the de facto impact is a whole mass of brown refugees get excluded. You can have as many minority ethnic friends as you like, you can even be black (and many border control guards are, it's not a prestige job), but that policy you're being paid to enact will still be discriminating against The Other.
There's never guarantees. But the only way the working class can realistically act in a united fashion against our real oppressors is by being united. That means organising with migrants, not denying them a stake in society and shunning them until they stop giving a shit.
Well let's turn this around for a second. Britain is currently in the midst of a downturn. The pound is weak and not buying much, jobs are scarce and casualised, our working rights are some of the worst in Europe and our housing some of the most expensive. Lithuania just passed a more progressive law on zero hours contracts than us. Germany has better, cheaper homes and more jobs. We are living through the dog days of free movement within Europe.
So why aren't you in Germany?
Mr Moose
What the hell are we supposed to tell the kids?
The threads title begs the question had all the horrible progressives been nicer would that have worked?
To be frank, no, unless there was an economic solution to go with it.
What we have is battles between liberal (and illiberal) elites. The less liberal ones have kept a section of the (white) populations' piss on the boil for years. They and the people they were encouraged to hate are pawns. The aim of the game is to trash even the mild restraint other liberals place upon their activities in terms of taxation, regulation, social justice and carbon emissions. They have created a fantasy that something liberal approaching socialism runs the world and it is it not they together that are fucking the world over
Any future electoral politics of the left needs to drum this home endlessly.
Whilst we should reject market based liberal economics dressed up as left wing we don't need to reject people for being angry or fearful with these results. Doing so to such an extent isn't going to attract anyone to left wing solutions, largely because most don't discern between lefties and progressives. People will just take your ire to support their position.
To be frank, no, unless there was an economic solution to go with it.
What we have is battles between liberal (and illiberal) elites. The less liberal ones have kept a section of the (white) populations' piss on the boil for years. They and the people they were encouraged to hate are pawns. The aim of the game is to trash even the mild restraint other liberals place upon their activities in terms of taxation, regulation, social justice and carbon emissions. They have created a fantasy that something liberal approaching socialism runs the world and it is it not they together that are fucking the world over
Any future electoral politics of the left needs to drum this home endlessly.
Whilst we should reject market based liberal economics dressed up as left wing we don't need to reject people for being angry or fearful with these results. Doing so to such an extent isn't going to attract anyone to left wing solutions, largely because most don't discern between lefties and progressives. People will just take your ire to support their position.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
A couple of points about 'flooding' into countries with decent working rights.
First, Norway does indeed get a very large number of people going there, far more per capita than the UK.
But second, it's not quite that simple. Countries with higher average standards of living, like Norway, are not necessarily the best places for immigrants to find work. London is a very good example of a place that is very harsh for new arrivals due to the staggering housing costs, but there is also a massive amount of work available in London. Despite its evident problems, London remains an attractive place.
First, Norway does indeed get a very large number of people going there, far more per capita than the UK.
But second, it's not quite that simple. Countries with higher average standards of living, like Norway, are not necessarily the best places for immigrants to find work. London is a very good example of a place that is very harsh for new arrivals due to the staggering housing costs, but there is also a massive amount of work available in London. Despite its evident problems, London remains an attractive place.
Mr Moose
What the hell are we supposed to tell the kids?
'Battles' were already against the British State. The EU didn't prevent the UK from building social housing, or creating jobs.
Of course you were voting for something. Fanciful to think that you were not. You were voting for the unrestrained national interests over the supernational interest. Just as with the EU's faults you can't ignore what this leads to given the very right wing politics of our times.
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