Prince Andrew, Duke of York, named in underage 'sex slave' lawsuit
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not-bono-ever
meh
I have know many people who turned out to be rotters and serial killers but HRH Randy Andrew does seem to have had a lifetime of extraordinarily bad luck with his mateage
DaveCinzano
WATCH OUT, GEORGE, HE'S GOT A SCREWDRIVER!
So you don't trust the usual suspects?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Or him saying he was coerced by the perverted prince
Weller
So ermm ... You know ermm
probably not he was usually out sorting Pizza whenever they visited but you never know these days Maxwell and Epstein were supposed to have kept cctv and photos of celebs and we havent really seen much of what was in thier safes despite court cases
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justin credible
Active Member
I wondered whether readers would be interested to read the many claims and accusations made by Virginia Giuffre in her book Billionaire's Playboy Club.
www.documentcloud.org
DocumentCloud
www.documentcloud.org
justin credible
Active Member
Just an update of the arrests in this case, the people arrested are facing charges of conspiracy to murder. I have been following the activities of this network for some time. Since it started in fact, as the people invovled have network connections to the psychologist who abused me. I won't be commenting more in this case here as a) investigative journalists are all over it and b) I do not wish to prejudice any future trial. I would like to say that I am aware of, and can prove with evidence, that sinister actors (some working in NHS mental health services) have been abusing vulnerable people for some years and radicalising them. For the avoidance of doubt, I am not a fan of Prince Andrew, however the multiple connections of some of his accusers to the networks that abused me and have abused other vulnerable people need to be exposed before someone is actually murdered.
'Satanic ritual abuse' protesters gather at Waddesdon Manor
'Satanic ritual abuse' protesters gather at Waddesdon Manor
dessiato
🇪🇸 my spirit is crying for leaving
Whilst I have immense sympathy for you, and I truly do, perhaps you’d be better off with a separate thread where you’d be able to get help/advice that you’re unlikely to get here, because of the topic of this thread.
justin credible
Active Member
The thing is, the various actors promoting the satanic panic and / or linked to Carl Beech's bullshit are all over the Prince Andrew case
As I commented earler, the recent ITV programme about the Prince Andrew case featured the convicted conman Paul Page (who has multiple connections to extremely controversial actors promoting SRA / Qanon conspiracy theories) and also the journalist Annette Witheridge who is a fascinating person with a history of making false allegations against Harvey Proctor, a man who was falsely accused by SRA fantasist Carl Beech.
While I find Harvey Proctor’s political views odious I believe that whatever a person’s political views, they should not be falsely reported as having AIDS as reported by Annette Witheridge, or falsely accused of being part of a VIP satanic paedophile ring, as Proctor was by Carl Beech.
If you search google for Annette Witheridge you will find a clip from the After Dark programme in which Harvey Proctor confronts her about her false allegations against him and she admits that the allegations were false.
eta
Harvey Proctor’s situation resonates in some ways with Prince Andrew’s situation. Proctor was convicted of sexual offences, he pleaded guilty as described in the link below. He is not completely innocent of everything just as Prince Andrew is not completely innocent of everything.
The Glasgow Herald - Google News Archive Search
news.google.com
While Proctor was guilty of paying 17 year old minors (referred to at the time as “rent boys") for spanking sessions, he later went on to have his life completely destroyed by false allegations of being part of an elite, murdering, satanic, paedophile ring by Carl Beech.
It is extremely important to notice and understand the fact that just because a person did a bad thing, or several bad things, it does not mean that they are therefore guilty of other, much more serious, bad things. If we all believe that people are guilty of terrible crimes based on other lesser crimes we can just dispense with criminal trials altogether and find people guilty in the court of social media based on prior acts / convictions.
The reason I am making a big deal of this is not because I wish to support Prince Andrew or Harvey Proctor but because fake allegations can destroy the life of any innocent person including potentially any of the posters here. If affluent, privileged, influential people such as Prince Andrew and Harvey Proctor can be subjected to trial by media then you need to think about how easy it would be for any ordinary person to be utterly destroyed by false allegations.
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justin credible
Active Member
Earlier on in the thread I responded to another poster who subsequently edited their post. I C&Pd the text and would like to repond to it anyway.
My response is this
You may be right about this. However I would like to ask you whether you are absolutely sure you are correct about VG’s narrative being continual as other, much more credible witnesses (as in witnesses who were not as high up the sexually abusive recruitment pyramid as VG) have made interesting claims that validate some elements of her claims and yet refute others.
e.g. the testimony of Carolyn Andriano a much more credible witness than Giuffre IMO
Virginia Giuffre told me in 2001 she slept with Prince Andrew, witness says
The claims by Carolyn Andriano, who testified at Ghislaine Maxwell’s trial, will add pressure on the prince
So Carolyn Andriano, a victim of Epstein and Maxwell, claimed that Virginia had phoned her boasting of having sexual relations with Prince Andrew. The witness claims that VG also seemed thrilled and enthusiastic about the situation in the phone calls.
The scenario described by Carolyn Andriano seems credible to me.
I think it is highly likely that Prince Andrew, at that time in his life, newly divorced and single, was surrounded by many apparently enthusiastic young women and it may be possible that he had sexual relations with so many of them that he does not remember Ms Giuffre. It is also possible that he does remember her but is lying about it for obvious reasons.
While I believe it is credible that he may have had sexual relations with Ms Giuffre I find it far less likely that he would have knowingly raped her, for the simple reason that, as an entitled, privileged royal male who was at that time 2nd in line to the throne, surrounded by willing and enthusiastic young women, why would he have taken the massive risk of raping a woman?
He may be a spoiled, entitled, temper tantrum prone man but this does not make him a paedophile. Of course it may also be that he believed that he was involved in consensual sex with an 18 year old woman and only later discovered that she was legally a minor. Given Epstein’s oft reported hidden cameras and likely linked kompromat harvesting activities this could be entirely possible, highly likely in fact.
Unfortunately for Prince Andrew his arrogance and ill judged interviews have left him in a situation in which it is very difficult for him to now be honest.
justin credible
Active Member
There is also the issue of the fact that many victims of sex trafficking do not know that they are trafficked. Many perceive their traffickers as their friends. Many victims recruit other females (or in some cases males) to sex trafficking networks for various reasons. Those reasons can be on a continuum of motivations, with at one end the chance to make money and to please the trafficker (who may be perceived as a friend or lover) and at the other end there may be a genuine belief that the vulnerable person being recruited is being helped to better themselves, pay off debts or some other reason.
Most recruiting of victims happens somewhere in the middle of the continuum and significant cognitive dissonance is involved. If we consider this in a nuanced way then it is entirely possible that Prince Andrew could have had what he had every reasons to believe was consensual sexual activity with a young woman who was trafficked but who did not realise that she was trafficked. She may have acted as though she was consenting but later come to believe that she was under duress.
Virginia Giuffre was, according to various news reports of Epstein’s victims testimonies, nearer to the top of the exploitation pyramid than the bottom. While she was not as high up as Ghislaine Maxwell she bears significant culpability for the exploitation of many other young women and girls. VG has admitted that she recruited minor girls for Epstein. Carolyn Andriano , whom I consider to be a credible witness, has stated that Giuffre recruited her to Epstein’s sex trafficking pyramidal enterprise when Carolyn was 14 years old and Giuffre was an adult. If true this makes Giuffre someone who participated in the sexual exploitation and trafficking of minors.
This article casts a different perspective on things
also see
www.dailymail.co.uk
VG also failed to give evidence at Ghislaine Maxwell’s trial. I cannot understand why, if she is such a warrior for truth and justice, she would not wish to give testimony at the trial. It really does not make any sense at all.
Most recruiting of victims happens somewhere in the middle of the continuum and significant cognitive dissonance is involved. If we consider this in a nuanced way then it is entirely possible that Prince Andrew could have had what he had every reasons to believe was consensual sexual activity with a young woman who was trafficked but who did not realise that she was trafficked. She may have acted as though she was consenting but later come to believe that she was under duress.
Virginia Giuffre was, according to various news reports of Epstein’s victims testimonies, nearer to the top of the exploitation pyramid than the bottom. While she was not as high up as Ghislaine Maxwell she bears significant culpability for the exploitation of many other young women and girls. VG has admitted that she recruited minor girls for Epstein. Carolyn Andriano , whom I consider to be a credible witness, has stated that Giuffre recruited her to Epstein’s sex trafficking pyramidal enterprise when Carolyn was 14 years old and Giuffre was an adult. If true this makes Giuffre someone who participated in the sexual exploitation and trafficking of minors.
This article casts a different perspective on things
also see
Jeffrey Epstein 'sex slave' was a 'money-hungry sex kitten'
Former companions said Virginia Roberts, 31, lived a lavish lifestyle and never seemed like she was being held captive as she was part of Jeffrey Epstein's harem in Palm Beach, Florida.
VG also failed to give evidence at Ghislaine Maxwell’s trial. I cannot understand why, if she is such a warrior for truth and justice, she would not wish to give testimony at the trial. It really does not make any sense at all.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
I think folks should pay attention to the points that justin credible is making.
bluescreen
tofu eating wokerati
Giuffre was 17, FFS.
You do realise, don't you, that many of the Rotherham victims thought those abusing them were their boyfriends? Someone in that position isn't thinking straight.
You do realise, don't you, that many of the Rotherham victims thought those abusing them were their boyfriends? Someone in that position isn't thinking straight.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Neither the prosecution nor the defence asked her to. You can't just rock up at a criminal trial and start giving evidence.
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
a daily mail article slagging off prince Andrew's accuser? fuck offThere is also the issue of the fact that many victims of sex trafficking do not know that they are trafficked. Many perceive their traffickers as their friends. Many victims recruit other females (or in some cases males) to sex trafficking networks for various reasons. Those reasons can be on a continuum of motivations, with at one end the chance to make money and to please the trafficker (who may be perceived as a friend or lover) and at the other end there may be a genuine belief that the vulnerable person being recruited is being helped to better themselves, pay off debts or some other reason.
Most recruiting of victims happens somewhere in the middle of the continuum and significant cognitive dissonance is involved. If we consider this in a nuanced way then it is entirely possible that Prince Andrew could have had what he had every reasons to believe was consensual sexual activity with a young woman who was trafficked but who did not realise that she was trafficked. She may have acted as though she was consenting but later come to believe that she was under duress.
Virginia Giuffre was, according to various news reports of Epstein’s victims testimonies, nearer to the top of the exploitation pyramid than the bottom. While she was not as high up as Ghislaine Maxwell she bears significant culpability for the exploitation of many other young women and girls. VG has admitted that she recruited minor girls for Epstein. Carolyn Andriano , whom I consider to be a credible witness, has stated that Giuffre recruited her to Epstein’s sex trafficking pyramidal enterprise when Carolyn was 14 years old and Giuffre was an adult. If true this makes Giuffre someone who participated in the sexual exploitation and trafficking of minors.
This article casts a different perspective on things
also see
Jeffrey Epstein 'sex slave' was a 'money-hungry sex kitten'
Former companions said Virginia Roberts, 31, lived a lavish lifestyle and never seemed like she was being held captive as she was part of Jeffrey Epstein's harem in Palm Beach, Florida.
VG also failed to give evidence at Ghislaine Maxwell’s trial. I cannot understand why, if she is such a warrior for truth and justice, she would not wish to give testimony at the trial. It really does not make any sense at all.
justin credible
Active Member
Of course I understand how it works.
In many ways the situation of Virginia Giuffre resonates with that of Shamina Begum
People can be recruited, radicalised / brainwashed and do terrible things to others. If someone is abused and trafficked as a minor but goes on to abuse / recruit others as a minor and even subsequently as a (by now vulnerable) adult how do we determine their culpability? it is complex of course.
The Epstein cult has many similarities to the NXIVM cult, a pyramid / MLM scheme of sexual abuse and kompromat harvesting
Again I am not saying that Andrew is guilty or innocent, simply pointing out that things are complex
justin credible
Active Member
A mail article featuring people who used to know Virgina Giuffre
On its own it could be dismissed as victim smearing, possibly, but the accounts of VG's former associates are give credence to the very credible account of Carolyn Andriano in the Graun
discokermit
Well-Known Member
i think we can ignore articles that describe victims as money hungry sex kittens.
Athos
Well-Known Member
I think the fact the prosecution chose not to call her isn't a great endorsement. It does seem odd, given how much she has to say about Maxwell's role in Epstein's network. The most obvious reasons not to call her would be concerns over her own credibility and culpability, which are the areas Andrew's lawyers will gun for.
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LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Starting to feel like you're spamming this thread tbh justin credible.
People splurging loads of deeply personal stuff on this issue on a thread that's a bit related, but about a different topic doesn't usually go very well, just for your info.
People splurging loads of deeply personal stuff on this issue on a thread that's a bit related, but about a different topic doesn't usually go very well, just for your info.
justin credible
Active Member
Also there are many, many things about the Epstein cult / abuse pyramid that I do not know about
I am not claiming to know everything of course, just expressing curiosity about many things that, certainly amongst activists against the Qanon and anti-vaxx debunking communities have generated immense curiosity
All I have time for right now
I am not claiming to know everything of course, just expressing curiosity about many things that, certainly amongst activists against the Qanon and anti-vaxx debunking communities have generated immense curiosity
All I have time for right now
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
It has nothing to do with her though. I was replying to:
- she wasn't asked. By all accounts they only asked 4 out of possibly >100, keeping it simple to reduce wiggle room.
justin credible
Active Member
it really depends upon which survivor you give more credence to
According to Ms Andriano, Ms Giuffre didn’t appear upset over her claim she slept with Andrew.
In fact, she stated, “she thought it was pretty cool” and “couldn’t believe that she got to sleep with Prince Andrew”.
She added: “I don’t think she deserves any compensation.
“I don’t think she was coerced into doing anything.”
Ms Andriano said she believed Ms Giuffre deserves the same treatment as Maxwell since she “trafficked” her into a “world of spiralling downward slopes”.
At the time she was recruited Ms Andriano said Ms Giuffre, 38, gave her a revealing top and a pair of “tight skimpy shorts” and told her “whatever you do, don’t say your age”.
She says she then went to Epstein’s home in Palm Beach, Florida, where she watched Ms Giuffre massage him and have sex with him before Maxwell took her phone number and gave her $300.
In seeking to turn the tables on Ms Giuffre, the Duke’s US lawyer Andrew Brettler claims she was involved in the “wilful recruitment and trafficking of young girls for sexual abuse”.
The court papers quote Crystal Figueroa, the sister of one of Giuffre’s ex-boyfriends, who claims Andrew’s accuser asked her for help.
Crystal said: “[Giuffre] would say to me, ‘Do you know any girls who are kind of slutty?’”
The Duke has consistently and vehemently denied all of the claims made by Ms Giuffre.
Prince Andrew’s lawyers believe Ghislaine Maxwell victim could 'help clear him'
The Duke of York’s legal team believe Carolyn Andriano may hold crucial evidence that could bolster Andrew’s bid to have the case against him thrown out
www.mirror.co.uk
Athos
Well-Known Member
Yes, the claim that she chose not to is misconceived. Mine was a separate point about why the prosecution chose not to call her.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Sure, possibly a little ill-timed in the context of our credible friend's post.
justin credible
Active Member
er, OK, maybe the Jan 22 Mirror article would meet your approval
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