Prince Andrew, Duke of York, named in underage 'sex slave' lawsuit

[Raheem]

I don’t know if I’m being precious or not. But this thread seems to be mostly lots of middle aged men having opinions and making jokes about a middle aged man having sex with a very young woman who didn’t especially want to be there.

Jokes aside, not really sure it would be a good topic for middle-aged men to just have no opinion about.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Jokes aside, not really sure it would be a good topic for middle-aged men to just have no opinion about.

Sounds like some weird identity politics thing where only those who share demographic similarities with victims are allowed to speak.

 

[ska invita]

Ooh, where? I'd like to see it in print.

I can't remember
It made an impression as I hadnt seen it before

 

[andysays]

I'm beginning to wonder if there is another aim. Given Guiffre wasn't a party to the Maxwell trial. Often in cases like this, other victims come forward.

I'm wondering whether Guiffre might not be also trying to pave the way for other women to bring cases against Prince Andrew and Maxwell? For it's likely that in the process of discovery admissions might inadvertently be made, and other avenues of discovery opened up?

I'm wondering whether anything he (and his legal team) says or does in the Guiffre case in order to evade action will provide evidence about other trips, events and people, and facilitate other charges or law suits?

That's certainly a possibility, even if it isn't a deliberate aim of Guiffre.

 

[ska invita]

Ooh, where? I'd like to see it in print.

its come back to me

 

[tim]

its come back to me

View attachment 305135

The roots of bourgeois depravity are pretty much the same as the root of proletarian depravity in reality.

 

[ska invita]

The roots of bourgeois depravity are pretty much the same as the root of proletarian depravity in reality.

What do you mean, some kind of original sin thing?
I think the materially powerful are far more comfortable and able in flexing their power over others

 

[ska invita]

Heres the piece btw, maybe its interesting to talk about

Epstein saga continues - Weekly Worker

With Andrew Windsor embroiled in the scandal, with Ghislaine Maxwell facing years in jail, with the possibility of top names being named, Paul Demarty searches for the roots of bourgeois depravity

weeklyworker.co.uk

heres a little relevant extract

trouble is to get things the right way around - to understand moral depravity, or at least some subset of it, as an effect rather than a cause of social structures, especially class structures. It so happens that, when it comes to the Epstein scandal, the case is very easy to make. After all, sexual exploitation of the weak is a peccadillo of all historic ruling classes, from the droit de seigneur of the medieval lord to the rampant use of slaves for sex, both in the ancient world and in the antebellum southern US - and even to the 12th century bishop of Winchester, Henry of Blois, who obtained a licence from the king to run a string of brothels across the south of England (his employees were whimsically nicknamed the ‘Winchester geese’). Equally characteristically, rising or progressive classes denounce such outrages as evidence of the need for change.

The last such class to successfully supplant its exploiters was, of course, the bourgeoisie; but - for all the piety of Calvinist and Quaker entrepreneurs in the high period of the industrial revolution - the result has been the same. Already, by the 1840s, Marx and Engels could have a good laugh in the Communist manifesto at the sport among bourgeois gentlemen of seducing each others’ wives; by the end of that century, moral panics about child prostitution in British cities were routine and, while perhaps exaggerated by conservative religious sentiments, certainly reflected a real and dismal phenomenon among poor women.

At the end of that historical development is someone like Epstein, who more or less reinvents the aristocratic veneration of one’s own blood and sense of entitlement to the bodies of one’s lessers from first principles. In place of the sociopathic knights so ably brought to popular consciousness by Game of thrones, we have this bizarre gasbag, a billionaire drunk on pound-shop Nietzscheanism - him and his corrupt, cowardly and equally narcissistic friends.

 

[tim]

What do you mean, some kind of original sin thing?
I think the materially powerful are far more comfortable and able in flexing their power over others

You only need opportunity and a relatively minor differential in power to make depravity possible. Princes and socialites abuse, but so do teachers, taxi drivers, colleagues, those in the year above you at school, cousins and siblings

I'm happy to see Epstein, Windsor and Maxwell exposed for who they are and for them to answer for their specific crimes but I think the idea that abuse is something that is mainly perpetuated on one by the elites or on the other hand by despised minorities is a dangerous one.

It's a tendency seen in the Qanon movement, the obsession on the far-Right with "grooming gangs" and at times here in threads like this 'How much evidence is there of long term high level UK paedophile ring?' How much evidence is there of long term high level UK paedophile ring?

 

[ska invita]

You only need opportunity and a relatively minor differential in power to make depravity possible. Princes and socialites abuse, but so do teachers, taxi drivers, colleagues, those in the year above you at school, cousins and siblings

I'm happy to see Epstein, Windsor and Maxwell exposed for who they are and for them to answer for their specific crimes but I think the idea that abuse is something that is mainly perpetuated on one by the elites or on the other hand by despised minorities is a dangerous one.

It's a tendency seen in the Qanon movement, the obsession on the far-Right with "grooming gangs" and at times here in threads like this 'How much evidence is there of long term high level UK paedophile ring?' How much evidence is there of long term high level UK paedophile ring?

I take your point... specifically on the issue of sexual abuse of minors theres bound to be a large range of factors behind the behaviour...and I agree, theres many places within society where people can exert what power they have over others

I still would expect however that if we were able to look closely at the lives of the most privileged and powerful - lets say white men worth at least a couple of million - we would find more "abuse of power" than we would in other strata of the population of an equal size (unless forced to crime because of poverty perhaps).

 

[Apathy]

Yeah a predatory predisposition and where ever there is opportunity to act on it. I don’t know if I’m more disgusted (maybe its more shocking) when I see this kind of abuse exerted by people with more social status and wealth, if it’s those factors that enable it, and the likelihood of them getting away with it. Maybe it’s the sense that they should know better? That’s if we hold them to a higher standard. Or is it just the recklessness of it because of what they stand to lose; then that must mean that they’re certainly weaker and/or sicker in the head. But you could say that for anyone of any status. There can still be a wall of silence and there can be conspiracy. It’s as you say; the differential in power that’s key.

 

[Athos]

I still would expect however that if we were able to look closely at the lives of the most privileged and powerful - lets say white men worth at least a couple of million - we would find more "abuse of power" than we would in other strata of the population of an equal size (unless forced to crime because of poverty perhaps).

Of course power is more likely to be abused by those with power. People - regardless of sex or race - use what power they have to get what they want. That's why we should aspire to a society in which people don't have power over others, rather than one in which power over others is distributed proportionately by sex and race.

ETA: I'm not saying that racial, sexual, etc. inequality isn't a problem; we must tackle it. But we should recognise that, ultimately, the importance of those categories lies in the extent to which they're proxies for power, and to recognise they often fall short of that purpose e.g. Maxwell's power was anathema to the interests of women.

 

[ska invita]

Of course power is more likely to be abused by those with power. People - regardless of sex or race -

Sex and race can in many circumstances equate to a form of power also

 

[Pickman's model]

Of course power is more likely to be abused by those with power.

I'm curious to hear about how power is abused by people without power

 

[Athos]

Sex and race can in many circumstances equate to a form of power also

Not intrinsically, but I wouldn't argue with the idea that sex and race often bestow power in a society organised as ours is.

 

[Athos]

I'm curious to hear about how power is abused by people without power

Quite.

 

[mango5]

Sounds like some weird identity politics thing where only those who share demographic similarities with victims are allowed to speak.

It doesn't to me. The responses to Saunders post are dismissive and patronising. Middle aged men aren't being cancelled on this thread.

 

[agricola]

I'm curious to hear about how power is abused by people without power

isn't that abstracting electricity?

 

[Pickman's model]

isn't that abstracting electricity?

People without power clearly aren't abstracting electricity

 

[Duncan2]

It doesn't to me. The responses to Saunders post are dismissive and patronising. Middle aged men aren't being cancelled on this thread.

Tbf Saunders didn't make it clear what she was driving at

 

[Pickman's model]

Interesting to rewind seven years and revisit this link from the op Prince Andrew named in underage 'sex slave' lawsuit over claims of forced sexual relations

How times have changed. The 'no truth to these claims' line has collapsed and we can see that either Andrew lied to his mother at the time or the queen is complicit in attempts to lie Prince Andrew named in US lawsuit over underage sex claims guardian link for those without an indy account

And one thing that's been largely omitted due to the focus on Andrew in this thread is that vg was trafficked for three years by epstein, that her abuse lasted longer and involved more men than just hrh. Andrew very much just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[bluescreen]

Interesting to rewind seven years and revisit this link from the op Prince Andrew named in underage 'sex slave' lawsuit over claims of forced sexual relations

How times have changed. The 'no truth to these claims' line has collapsed and we can see that either Andrew lied to his mother at the time or the queen is complicit in attempts to lie

The DM story linked at the end of that article is very strange. A crisis management firm was suing Epstein over unpaid fees relating to the scandal over his links to the prince.
You'd have thought that it would be Windsor suffering the reputational damage from association with Epstein rather than vice versa. So why was Epstein consulting a crisis management firm about it? Questions, questions.

 

[Saunders]

I'm not entirely sure what point you're making here but …. you'll get used to our black humour which bubbles up now and again on most any long thread.

You are probably right, but in defence of the thread, ….the space between action some irreverence is probably inevitable.

I wasn’t really making any point, just an observation. I also like black or irreverent humour but I haven’t found much of the humour on this thread terribly funny. It’s just all seems a bit blokey jokey, on a thread about sex trafficking. Which is a shame, as there are also interesting and informative posts and links. I’ve been looking on here for 2 or 3 years now, but don’t have much to say and probably should have kept my observation to myself, particularly as this is P&P and I don’t have anything useful or interesting to add and am def not looking for an argument.

 

[Pickman's model]

I wasn’t really making any point, just an observation. I also like black or irreverent humour but I haven’t found much of the humour on this thread terribly funny. It’s just all seems a bit blokey jokey, on a thread about sex trafficking. Which is a shame, as there are also interesting and informative posts and links. I’ve been looking on here for 2 or 3 years now, but don’t have much to say and probably should have kept my observation to myself, particularly as this is P&P and I don’t have anything useful or interesting to add and am def not looking for an argument.

I'd be the last person to defend the quality of humour here, you just need to look at the new jokes thread to see how hit and miss it is. I thought you were talking about the couple of pages before your post which tbf for me mark a bit of a nadir on this thread. As for your length of membership I thought you'd pick up on the way there's a general view among many posters of anyone here for less than ~10 years as something of a newbie. Rather than keeping things to yourself post them, if you have stuck it out here for several years sure you've a lot of interest and use to add

 

[maomao]

a general view among many posters of anyone here for less than ~10 years as something of a newbie.

Less than 19 years = fucking n00b

 

[Pickman's model]

Less than 19 years = fucking n00b

A common view I hear among posters of your vintage who were here while it was still cool

 

[danny la rouge]

and probably should have kept my observation to myself

It’d be rubbish if people felt their observations weren’t wanted.

 

[Wilf]

It’d be rubbish if people felt their observations weren’t wanted.

This.

 

[Wilf]

On the 'jokes', I think they went into overdrive after the Maitlis interview and the 'can't sweat' stuff. There was legitimate contempt for windsor there and, for me, a legitimate glee about someone so powerful being both on the end of a legal process and his own lies. But beyond that, yeah, probably not what the thread should be about + yes too as to the middle aged bloke thing. But let's not ever drop the contempt for him and his ilk.

 

[TopCat]

isn't that abstracting electricity?

Best joke so far this year,