post-modernism, cultural relativity and identity politics - attitudes of progressives

[butchersapron]

Never have the time do you? How...odd.

 

[articul8]

Ibn - What is the relation between communitarianism and multiculturalism, in your view?

 

[butchersapron]

Sadly no time. Just thought I'd pop by to see if you'd finished building the frame.

Great couple of posts btw. Very revealing. Ta for the input.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

Yes what? Every person here is more than aware of the history of the concept and the political uses of it (though you seem not to be if this is your start point). I'm asking you to explain what you posted. More waffle expected.

What is criticized as multiculturalism is the most reductive form it takes, in theory or practise. The uncomplicated insistence that people belong to distinct cultural groups, then institutionalized in top down representation, government proclaimed concern for diversity etc. [the one that in reality has been used cynically and divisively]. Especially as it conceives social (not to mention cultural) reality as static.

Alaine Tourraine opposed his theory of social movements to that very thing, as well as defending multiculturalism. To attack multiculturalism per se is careless and doing the work of Cameron, Sarkozy, Merkel etc.. It just leads to the reactionary conclusion that 'diversity is bad' whereas diversity should be defended.

 

[butchersapron]

Yes what? Every person here is more than aware of the history of the concept and the political uses of it (though you seem not to be if this is your start point). I'm askingyou to explain what you posted. More waffle expected.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

Ibn - What is the relation between communitarianism and multiculturalism, in your view?

Of wider relevance to the thread is a quote by Samir Amin:

Democracy is necessarily a universalist concept, and it can tolerate no lapse from that essential virtue. But the dominant discourse —even the one that emanates from forces that subjectively classify themselves as “on the left”—gives a sliced-up interpretation of democracy that in the end negates the unity of the human race in favor of “races,” “communities,” “cultural groups,” etc. Anglo-Saxon identity politics, the aggregate expression of which is “communitarianism,” is a blatant example of this negation of the real equality of human beings. To wish naively, even with the best of intentions, for specific forms of “community development”—which, it will be claimed afterwards, were produced by the democratically expressed will of the communities in question (the West Indians in the London suburbs, for example, or the North Africans in France, or the Blacks in the United States, etc.)—is to lock individuals inside these communities and to lock these communities inside the iron limits of the hierarchies that the system imposes. It is nothing less than a kind of apartheid that is not acknowledged as such.[.quote]

http://www.skeptically.org/socialism/id9.html

 

[butchersapron]

OK, no relation to the thread. No attempt to to relate the easily found C&P to the arguments in the thread. As with L_C pony up or go away.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

Fits various themes like a glove.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Fits various themes like a glove.

Except that it doesn't, because you're needing to reduce both multiculturalism and communitarianism (which is more widely understood by the Etzioni definition than by the spin Amin is putting on it) to their lowest common denominators in order to be able to claim any linkage. While there are a couple of fairly narrow concordances between the two, there are many differences, too. For example, the former is as much imposed from without as within, whereas communitarianism most often manifests as a concomitant of the deliberate evolution of a narrow community by those in the community - no external imposition.

If that's "fitting like a glove", expect blisters.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

In context of the multiculturalist debates communitarianism has this sort of meaning, where citizenship in some sense at odds with the rights of groups. On the continent, the two are terms always closely associated.

Etzioni is quite distinct from all this.

 

[ViolentPanda]

In context of the multiculturalist debates communitarianism has this sort of meaning, where citizenship in some sense at odds with the rights of groups.

Wrong way round. It's the presumed rights of groups that are seen to be at odds with citizenship.

On the continent, the two are terms always closely associated.

Is this thread concerned with "the continent"? There was me thinking it rferred specifically to the situation in the UK, with a few passing comparative references to the likes of France.

Etzioni is quite distinct from all this.

Not really. Etzioni's definition of communitariansim is the hegemonic definition. If you talk about "communitarianism, then the onus is on you to state that you're not referring to what the "consensus" definition of the term means, but rather to a "special" usage.

 

[articul8]

what is the "consensus" definition of communitarianism? Both of you talk in vague generalities. How does Etzioni's definition relate to Taylor's work, and what have either got to do with the object of Amin's critique? And what has any of that got to do with the thread topic ?

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

I believe the confusion stems from the fact that Taylor et al., who are multiculturalists, didn't embrace the term - or not to the same extent as Etzioni, who is also more conservative.

Alaine Touraine's Towards a New Paradigm for Understanding Today's World contains a critique of communitarianism understood as I have talked about it. Amartya Sen has also sought to oppose multiculturalism to 'communitarian conceptions of identity'.

How does this tie in to the topic then? Witness the thread has focused on identity politics and culturalisms. It has also touched upon questions of racialisation of politics. . . Now do I think is multiculturalism to blame for the latter, like all the other social ills it's blamed for? No, rather, in my opinion, a certain form of multiculturalism was advanced as one way to bolster neo-liberalism, it infected parts of the left due to the weakness of its position (another topic of the thread). At the same time, the insufficiency of this itself helped encourage the more backward looking communalisms. The effects of social defeatism, homogenisation, and adverserialism, which could not be mitigated - all the more so.

 

[butchersapron]

waffle. Go.
Away

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

Long live multiculture.

 

[butchersapron]

Say something

 

[danny la rouge]

Rasta rasta.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

booyakasha

 

[ViolentPanda]

what is the "consensus" definition of communitarianism? Both of you talk in vague generalities.

The consensus definition in social sciences is exactly what I said it is. Etzioni's definition. That's hardly a vague generality.

How does Etzioni's definition relate to Taylor's work...

It doesn't. That's the point.

...and what have either got to do with the object of Amin's critique? And what has any of that got to do with the thread topic ?

Why do you care, other than to try and score points?

 

[articul8]

why do I care if posts relate to the thread topic?

 

[articul8]

The English asparagus season has begun (we can all play at this game)

 

[love detective]

have you seen the size of those asparagus stalks this year though, pure steroid like, their like tree trunks

 

[articul8]

Apparently the weather has been very bad for this year's crop

 

[love detective]

crap weather has made them huge?

 

[articul8]

I don't make the rules - perhaps it's like really dark shitty conditions are good for mushrooms?

 

[butchersapron]

So join the party which supports really dark shitty conditions you mushrooms.

 

[articul8]

why should people join the Tories, we ain't mushrooms

 

[butchersapron]

There are not enough faces to palm for that. Really.

 

[articul8]

oh i see, you meant Labour. How witty

 

[butchersapron]

Yes, labour not the tories. Did you experience something that made you think different?