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Pop and Rock Stars... and underage girls

emanymton said:
Christ, seriously? The adult has responsibility not the child.
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A mitigating factor doesn't absolve the adult of responsibility - the offence would still have been committed. But it might have a bearing on the eventual outcome, particularly sentencing.

We're having to do a lot of mopping up of the harms done in the past in a time when this kind of behaviour was (to choose my words carefully) less unacceptable. That's not going to be a straightforward or clear-cut process.

Attitudes about underage sex 40 years ago were different, and to some extent more at odds with the laws, which are broadly the same now. Since then, laws have been tightened up, particularly in regard to the specifics of offences, penalties have been significantly increased, and attitudes have changed considerably: try doing the "phwoar" thing about a 13 year old girl now and the result is likely to be a distinct froideur around the place. Get caught actually having sex with one, and it is far more likely (though arguably still not likely enough) that investigations would be made, and charges a definite possibility.

I don't want to excuse what happened in the past, but I can at the same time see how, given the prevailing attitudes, people got away with it. The funny thing is...if you went back in time with our present attitudes, you'd probably find yourself being shouted down for being "politically correct" (if that term had even been invented then). A lot of people would, without the benefit of hindsight, been really quite relaxed about it, even though it was as illegal then as it is now, and would have seen the kind of debate going on here as quite ridiculously over the top. It absolutely isn't, and I am glad (in part for some obvious personal reasons) that we are much more uptight about people having sex with kids, but I don't think it helps to lose sight of the very profound difference in the way these things are viewed now.
 
Thora said:
This often seems to be brought up in trials of men having sex with very young girls - "she looked older", "she was dressed like a slapper", "she wasn't even a virgin" - and those defences are ripped apart on sites like this.
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"she looked older" - I have never in my entire life met a teenage girl who looked like anything other than what she was.
 
Idris2002 said:
"she looked older" - I have never in my entire life met a teenage girl who looked like anything other than what she was.
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Depends on your degree of wishful thinking. I have seen 12 or 13 year old girls who, all made up, could have passed for anything from 15-20. So if "could have passed" is someone's criterion for "is she old enough?", then I think there are young girls out there who could be said to pass for much older.

However, if someone is remotely concerned about how old they actually are, rather than making an excuse for themselves, you don't usually have to spend very long in conversation with someone to spot the difference between a 13 year old and (say) a 17 year old.

Unless someone has gone right out of their way to deliberately mislead someone of their age (and arguably not even then), there's no excuse for assuming they're 16 or over. If you're in any doubt at all, it's wiser and safer to assume they're underage and leave well alone.

Which I think is more like the prevailing attitude generally nowadays - whereas, 30-40 years ago, it was probably the other way around - "if she looks old enough, that's good enough for me". And they'd probably have got away with that...30-40 years ago. Hopefully not now.
 
LiamO said:
Lot's of outrage on the RIP thread.

Can anyone be arsed checking the comments that some of those so offended may have made on previous threads about not popular/good celebs?
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Only sadness that you put it on that thread rather than just starting this one. I absolutely adore Bowie. He's a massive part of my life. That doesn't mean I think this discussion shouldn't be had or that you/one/I can't find that behaviour contemptible. But, yeah. Cheers for doing it there.
 
Idris2002 said:
"she looked older" - I have never in my entire life met a teenage girl who looked like anything other than what she was.
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Don't agree. Teenage boys tend to me much easier to 'age'.

I regularly pick up my 16-yr old daughter and 13-yr old son from teenage club nites (supposedly alcohol-free but in reality the kids just get pissed before they go in) and often ask 'How old is she?' when I see some pissed-up young wan tottering along on her 6-inch heels.

I agree that teenage girls look like teenage girls... but actually telling their age is much more difficult. Maybe that's cos I'm old. You know you are getting old when you look at scantily-clad teen girls and your first thought is either 'You'll catch your death' or 'think of your poor kidneys'.
 
existentialist said:
If you're in any doubt at all, it's wiser and safer to assume they're underage and leave well alone.

Which I think is more like the prevailing attitude generally nowadays - whereas, 30-40 years ago, it was probably the other way around - "if she looks old enough, that's good enough for me". And they'd probably have got away with that...30-40 years ago. Hopefully not now.
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Agreed. Can you imagine someone coming out with the likes of "If they're old enough to bleed, they're old enough to butcher" these days? (how plain wrong is that on every level?)

In my youth I would have heard that most days - from everyone from school mates to (later) workmates - and most people would either snigger or agree. If they disagreed, they would mostly stay silent.

I would suggest that the opposite is the case these days.
 
LiamO said:
Don't agree. Teenage boys tend to me much easier to 'age'.

I regularly pick up my 16-yr old daughter and 13-yr old son from teenage club nites (supposedly alcohol-free but in reality the kids just get pissed before they go in) and often ask 'How old is she?' when I see some pissed-up young wan tottering along on her 6-inch heels.

I agree that teenage girls look like teenage girls... but actually telling their age is much more difficult. Maybe that's cos I'm old. You know you are getting old when you look at scantily-clad teen girls and your first thought is either 'You'll catch your death' or 'think of your poor kidneys'.
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Yes, but you live in South Armagh, where the stress of living hits people hard.
 
Idris2002 said:
Yes, but you live in South Armagh, where the stress of living hits people hard.
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Au contraire Idris2002. I think you are confusing sunny south Armagh with inner-city Belfast. Besides, now the hilltop squatters have fucked off, streees levels are akin to any rural community... with the highest concentration of Hair and Beauty salons on the island.

And anyway, dem Dishcos do be in cosmopolitan places like Dundalk, 'Blayney, Dungannon and even Newcastle.

Blayney was (IME) the most intimidating. Lot's of pissed-up, aggressive, Nordie teens (from Lurgan and Portadown mostly) and lots of pissed-off, aggressive, Culchie Gardai.
 
LiamO said:
This is an interesting article from somebody on the inside. Can't imagine the reaction if this had been written by a bloke.

Predatory Teenage Girls
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I don't buy this, and I find the co-option of the term "predatory" rather unpleasant.

Predatory behaviour is about power, essentially - either in terms of physical control, or the ability to emotionally manipulate. It needs both someone willing to exercise that predatory activity, and someone vulnerable or naive enough to fall prey to it.

When we talk about "predatory paedophiles", we are talking about people who can use their comparative emotional sophistication (or, more rarely, their physical strength) to coerce someone into sexual activity. I don't think we can realistically apply the term "predatory" to the behaviour of young girls: they may well be being manipulative, or taking advantage of the sexual urges of an older man, but that is not remotely the same, either in terms of approach or degree, as an adult manipulating a child into sex.

If an adult is truly to be the victim of a "predatory teenage girl", he has to admit that he was either physically incapable of resisting their advances, or is so emotionally weak as to be unable to prevent himself from participating in sexual activity with her - not an admission that I think most men, even those who have had sex with underage girls, are likely to volunteer.

I am not denying that there will be young girls who, for all kinds of reasons, may put themselves in the way of older men, and even operate manipulatively to initiate sexual activity. That is very different, in my mind, to "preying" on them - those men, ultimately did have a choice in a way that victims of adult predatory sexual offenders do not.
 
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Idris2002 said:
"she looked older" - I have never in my entire life met a teenage girl who looked like anything other than what she was.
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working in an offie you would. Plenty of teenage boys who look like men as well. Thats why most places have switched to 'challenge 25'. I.E, you don't look over 25, you'll need ID.

Of course spend longer than a simple shop transactions chat with someone and it would become blindingly obvious in convo quite quickly.
 
Casually Red said:
I was reading a book on led zeppelin over Christmas and that stuff page was at was outrageous . And that bonham guy was a dangerous fucking rapist . A real danger to women.
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wasnt there something to do with sharks, groupies and hotels? horrible gross rock start behaviour. utter fuckbubbles (tho zep 3 = awesome!).
 
DotCommunist said:
working in an offie you would. Plenty of teenage boys who look like men as well. Thats why most places have switched to 'challenge 25'. I.E, you don't look over 25, you'll need ID.

Of course spend longer than a simple shop transactions chat with someone and it would become blindingly obvious in convo quite quickly.
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"What is this "Bruce Springsteen" of which you speak, grandad?"
 
Mation said:
Only sadness that you put it on that thread rather than just starting this one. I absolutely adore Bowie. He's a massive part of my life. That doesn't mean I think this discussion shouldn't be had or that you/one/I can't find that behaviour contemptible. But, yeah. Cheers for doing it there.
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Isn't that thread the appropriate place for the discussion? I don't remember talk of James brown's wife beating being banned from his RIP thread, or last week criticism of Lemmy's nazi memorabilia collection on his.

Bowie was a great artist, one of the very greatest. But Whitewashing him isn't right for anyone.
 
malatesta32 said:
wasnt there something to do with sharks, groupies and hotels? horrible gross rock start behaviour. utter fuckbubbles (tho zep 3 = awesome!).
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Yup. That depraved bit was also covered .

But the page maddox thing was well sinister . He was a confirmed satanist who obviously took crowleys encouragement to " do ast thou wilt " fully to heart .

And a tax dodger .
 
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