belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
It's not a million miles from how teeny pop groups singers are encouraged to hide any girlfriends to allow their fans to fantasize
Pop and Rock Stars... and underage girls
- Thread starter LiamO
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trashpony
Hag
Do you remember Billy?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
no, when i was younger i was a big sex pistols fan and then got interested in the bands they went on to, which for glen matlock was rich kids, john lydon's pil and then the (to my mind) more interesting journeys of paul cook and steve jones: not to mention sid vicious's truncated career.Do you remember Billy?
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
I think that there is a male analogue - many adolescent boys would have had posters of particular female stars on their bedroom walls (or, if they were somewhat shyer *cough* just have carried a torch for one). I think there is a difference: it seems that we might well have quite deliberately chosen targets for our youthful obsessions that were even more unattainable than rock stars! I think that's probably true for most girls, too - I don't imagine that a very large proportion of girls with David Cassidy (or Justin BieberI was wondering similar last night. Not being a boy I don't know, but it seemed that at the age I was worshipping pop/rock stars my male peers were idolising heroes of their own sex. Lusting after famous women seemed to come much later, and wasn't the same kind of fantasy (as far as I could tell). Be interesting to hear some male perspectiveseta: and indeed, male opinions of preteen girls going completely crackers over pop stars. At the time I mean, what did you make of it as a 12 year old boy?
) posters on their walls would actually wish to end up having sex with them.And, by the time boys have reached the same level of emotional maturity as girls (I've seen it suggested that boys might attain the level of emotional maturity girls exhibit at 14-15 by their very late teens or early 20s), they're significantly older, and less prone to having their naivete taken advantage of.
I can remember, as a fairly young person, seeing footage of girls at Beatles concerts - that classic shot of young teenage girls in Edna Everage glasses tearing at their hair, sobbing, and being carried, limp, from the auditorium - and being quite shocked and utterly perplexed by what was going on. Even as an adult, I find it difficult to relate to the kind of emotional state that was being demonstrated in that footage, but it's undeniable it went on, and still, perhaps to a slightly less intense level, does.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
I think that at least some of that "excuse-making" might be in reaction to the less nuanced views being expressed, although some (mainly female) posters have been very enlightening in their expression of the cognitive dissonance between holding a long-term admiration for Bowie and dealing with the notion of him as a sexual abuser.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
This is very true, although I think we can gently generalise to some extent, providing we keep it in mind that we are generalising, and can't then go back and apply our conclusions universally.
Rebelda
Nearly as bad as Badgers
I'm intrigued - did/do teenage boys feel jealousy towards famous men getting that level of admiration from teenage girls? Or does it heighten the boys' admiration for that celebrity?I think that there is a male analogue - many adolescent boys would have had posters of particular female stars on their bedroom walls (or, if they were somewhat shyer *cough* just have carried a torch for one). I think there is a difference: it seems that we might well have quite deliberately chosen targets for our youthful obsessions that were even more unattainable than rock stars! I think that's probably true for most girls, too - I don't imagine that a very large proportion of girls with David Cassidy (or Justin Bieber
And, by the time boys have reached the same level of emotional maturity as girls (I've seen it suggested that boys might attain the level of emotional maturity girls exhibit at 14-15 by their very late teens or early 20s), they're significantly older, and less prone to having their naivete taken advantage of.
I can remember, as a fairly young person, seeing footage of girls at Beatles concerts - that classic shot of young teenage girls in Edna Everage glasses tearing at their hair, sobbing, and being carried, limp, from the auditorium - and being quite shocked and utterly perplexed by what was going on. Even as an adult, I find it difficult to relate to the kind of emotional state that was being demonstrated in that footage, but it's undeniable it went on, and still, perhaps to a slightly less intense level, does.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
That's a good question. Remembering for me, the pop/rock stars I was into, I didn't actually care either way whether they appealed to girls. If anything it might have put me off them.
TopCat
Putin fanboy
Never seen much nuance expressed before with regard to these matters on Urban by either gender. The difference seems to be they liked his music so look for excuses in this instance.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
wendy james a particular favourite of my contemporaries
Rebelda
Nearly as bad as Badgers
I hadn't considered that, but yes. It's a perfect storm; there ought really to be more supervision of famous men. Time has proved that, although they should, on the whole they don't act responsibly towards underage girls and are surrounded by enablers (and cover-uppers) rather than ... monitors? Er, supervisors - people without that celebrity's best interests at heart.
bimble
floofy
My recollection of being a teenaged girl is that you were pretty much expected to have highly sexualised topless pictures of grown men blue tacked to your wall, that you'd pulled out of Smash Hits magazine or whatever.Don't know but get the impression that boys bedrooms weren't quite the same way in those days..
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
there was the Kate Bush poster with her 'blowing little nipple kisses' (as she put it) which was very popular
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existentialist
Tired and unemotional
I think there's a good point here. If - as they tend to do - younger girls are tending to naturally find themselves attracted to older young men, then there is perhaps less of an impediment to extend that to significantly older men, particularly if they are charismatic and/or perceived as powerful or high-status.
Particularly as there is quite a lot of evidence to support the idea that female sexual attraction is, in part, driven by a desire to find partners who are "successful" by some standard relevant to the species in question (big colourful tail feathers, or a stage presence and lots of amplifiers
).I'm not suggesting that we reduce the entire complex area of human sexual activity to such simplistic notions, but they will - and do - play their part, and in combination with other factors may well play out in ways which don't, at first sight, fit our preconceptions about the sexuality of young women (in this case).
Rebelda
Nearly as bad as Badgers
I hope you're not sweeping up everyone participating in this discussion with the same brush. Cos I for one don't give a monkey's about Bowie's music. Isn't it good enough that there *is* a nuanced discussion happening now?
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
the shirley manson poster had very little to do with the musical quality of Garbage (although I'm not knocking them, they had some tunes). See also gwen stefani/no doubt
skyscraper101
0891 50 50 50
I had the occasional FHM style sexy women pinned up during the mid 90s. Baywatch era and all that. Seemed very normal among the nightclub/festival posters. By age 18 they'd come down (though I did keep a rather sultry looking PJ Harvey one up).
Winot
I wholeheartedley agree with your viewpoint
There can't have been that many tennis fans either.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I had a Debbie Harry poster and a Kate Bush one.
It is all very tricky isn't it. I, like pretty much everyone, am a product of my lived experiences and, my adolescence was a fucking train-crash. Mum had died, in care, rebellious and hateful teenager, drugs...fuck me, the whole miserable edifice...and unlike many young women, I do not look back on my sexual awakening with fond memories...because there was a bloody great gap from being 11. 12 and having all those fantasies (which frequently manifested themselves as girl on girl crushes) and the horrible reality of working a summer season in Torquay and being bullied into having sex by no end of predatory men.it certainly didn't involve long-term boyfriends of any age...Of course, my personal narrative was being a rebel, outside of the usual social constraints and so forth...but I was also scared, lonely and utterly desperate for intimacy and comfort. I have absolutely no problems in upholding the age of consent rules (although I agree, these ages are often arbitrary) because not all girls are ensconced in loving families and for sure, however much we tell ourselves we are in charge, we are not. Pfft, I am not talking about the usual phenomenon of having a boyf a few years older - that was a given precisely because young males were generally a bit slow on the uptake...but having exploitative sex with men who were in the late 20s, 30s and older. My partner's father, a man I personally loathed, had made a habit his entire life of selecting very young women to become involved with - the age differences were so much that my sweetheart's stepmother is younger than I am whilst his mother was a only a few years older than me. I find this very hard to understand and can only ascribe it to some sort of arrogant dominance thing (I suspect this much older man saw himself as a sage fatherly type...these women were his proteges, moulded and shaped by him alone... who also liked sex.
At the very least, I am clear that while the difference between childhood and adulthood are variable, it seems better to operate a safety first principle and continue to insist that young women and girls should have legal protection, particularly when the power equations are not just predicated on age alone.
At the very least, I am clear that while the difference between childhood and adulthood are variable, it seems better to operate a safety first principle and continue to insist that young women and girls should have legal protection, particularly when the power equations are not just predicated on age alone.
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danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Indeed, and I agree that that last phrase is pretty much the crux of the matter.
TopCat
Putin fanboy
I'm not sure to be frank. Grown men having sex with kids is just wrong.
I'll try and be honest here.Growning up at primary school in the late fifties there was quite a bit of sexual experimentation going on,mainly of the "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" type of thing.Then at intermediate school (age ten and eleven) it got more advanced, touchy feely stuff,there wasn't much in the way of age difference involved.Then with high school at twelve (I didn't attend much so experience is limited), but there was a largish group of boys and girls who were having full sex.With leaving school at fifteen and going out into the real world (arf) the world of younger girls having sex with older boys suddenly appeared,as far as I'm aware it mostly came with in the three years age difference that is often seen as not exploititive and it was common.The starfucking thing appeared as well,working on a Disney show (down loading and moving out) showed me numerous girls trying to get off with the actors (bit of a mistake that they were nearly all gay),and a bit later with the cast of Hair and what not.
I guess what I'm saying is it not just pop stars who did this (although they have more power and "star" quality than most blokes and exploited it).
Saying this there was a lot of gruesome sexual exploitation going on particularly in the sub groups of bikies,the police (I'm ashamed to say I attended a couple of police parties and the way they treated young girls was disgusting) and the military (both kiwi ones and yanks who where pretty thick on the ground at that time).
I guess what I'm saying is it not just pop stars who did this (although they have more power and "star" quality than most blokes and exploited it).
Saying this there was a lot of gruesome sexual exploitation going on particularly in the sub groups of bikies,the police (I'm ashamed to say I attended a couple of police parties and the way they treated young girls was disgusting) and the military (both kiwi ones and yanks who where pretty thick on the ground at that time).
TopCat
Putin fanboy
Over 16 and enthusiastic consent is all that counts.
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