Pop and Rock Stars... and underage girls

[killer b]

Some posters here who are not reticent in sticking the knife in over sexual politics are all of a sudden looking for nuance and making excuses for Bowie. This will bite them in the Arsenal.

Alternatively, it may have given some people pause for thought and context for a less black & white understanding of these kinds of discussions (which I think was the point of the thread in the first place).

 

[emanymton]

"The Evil One. SAY NOT HER NAME".

She who must not be named.

 

[Pickman's model]

"The Evil One. SAY NOT HER NAME".

 

[spanglechick]

I think there are differences though, for one thing your boyfriend was probably not a famous pop star. But the main difference that these where not relationship as such, the girls wanted to hang out with pop stars and sex was basically the price they paid for that privilege. Any sexual relationship between a teenager and an adult has the potential for harm. The particular circumstances with groupies increase the risk of harm in my opinion, and it us down to the adult to evaluate that risk not the teenager.

I think this post from earlier in the thread is really relevant.

seems to me girls want to be with the object of their adoration while my experience was the thought you could be if not that person then like that person.

There's a pernicious tendency in our patriarchal culture, to pretend that teenaged girls aren't horny little beasts (and the corollary - that all teen boys are desperate for sex). While there might be a testosterone-influenced trend, it's very far from being the rule, and it contributes to the damaging double standard (boy = player - girl = slut) and in some ways more damagingly, contributes to the harm caused by some young boys having sex before they are emotionally ready.

 

[belboid]

there is also, i think, a pleasant feeling about being one of the cognescenti, being in the avant garde if you will, one of the elect who have their own cult.

absolutely, and that was especially important for the likes of Bowie, as well as Iggy & Bolan. The people your folks didn't understand, that marked you out as a bit transgressive. Sooooooo much cooler than David Cassidy

 

[Rebelda]

I agree with most of this, but I am not sure that the ones who are the most likely to say no to sex are the ones who are still closest to being children. It would be extremely difficult for any teenage girls to say no once she finds herself in that situation, and I think it would probably take more maturity not less. Not that I am saying that only the most mature would say no.

Ah no that's not what I meant, but I do agree. What I meant was that one teenage girl might consent and one of the same age might panic and feel very much a child not an adult when confronted with the opportunity for sex. Some of course, due to the power held by the adult, would override that fear and go along with it. All I meant was that it's a hugely subjective discussion. The adult should always, always say no. My point is not that it's acceptable if a girl has consented, just trying to think about the position of being that girl.

 

[Rebelda]

There's a pernicious tendency in our patriarchal culture, to pretend that teenaged girls aren't horny little beasts (and the corollary - that all teen boys are desperate for sex). While there might be a testosterone-influenced trend, it's very far from being the rule, and it contributes to the damaging double standard (boy = player - girl = slut) and in some ways more damagingly, contributes to the harm caused by some young boys having sex before they are emotionally ready.

Yes indeed. I wonder if the prevalence of underage girls having relationships with older men is in part because their male peers aren't ready to explore sex and relationships until later than girls are.

 

[TopCat]

I

Alternatively, it may have given some people pause for thought and context for a less black & white understanding of these kinds of discussions (which I think was the point of the thread in the first place).

doubt it but time will tell.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes indeed. I wonder if the prevalence of underage girls having relationships with older men is in part because their male peers aren't ready to explore sex and relationships until later than girls are.

Not ready, or just not given the chance?!

tbh I think the truth is a bit blunter than that - as has been said a few times now, most 16-year-old girls are not in the slightest bit interested in 16-year-old boys. The reverse isn't true, ime.

 

[spanglechick]

it all depends tho, doesnt it? One of the main groups I work with at the moment is young carers, teenagers who have been looking after (usually) their parents, often on their own, and who have been doing for years. They tend to be pretty good at empathy, and tend tp be rather more mature than other teens their age. Many of them are actually more mature than various 20odd year olds that I've known.

The point being, you can't really talk about '13/14/15 year olds are like this/have reached this stage of development', because they really are all over the shop, some are still astoundingly childish, some are astoundingly grown up.

Which is way I said "obviously people develop at different rates". I've taught over 2000 kids in the last 20 years. There is littlle youcan generalise about that age group.

yes, he was getting there. But he still wasn't there then.

Does it matter to the essential point I was making? That a popular rock star has significantly more status in the eyes of a teenaged fan, than an average 25 year old would?

Cos if it doesn't matter, it seems an odd thing to score points over...

 

[emanymton]

There's a pernicious tendency in our patriarchal culture, to pretend that teenaged girls aren't horny little beasts (and the corollary - that all teen boys are desperate for sex). While there might be a testosterone-influenced trend, it's very far from being the rule, and it contributes to the damaging double standard (boy = player - girl = slut) and in some ways more damagingly, contributes to the harm caused by some young boys having sex before they are emotionally ready.

I agree, sorry if I implied otherwise. I tried to be as gender neutral as possible in my post given the topic.

 

[killer b]

I

doubt it but time will tell.

look at that Peel thread I posted - loads of changed positions between the two parts, and between that and this thread. People change their minds all the time, usually after talking about something.

 

[spanglechick]

Not ready, or just not given the chance?!

tbh I think the truth is a bit blunter than that - as has been said a few times now, most 16-year-old girls are not in the slightest bit interested in 16-year-old boys. The reverse isn't true, ime.

Not ready. I've worked with young men who have bravely expressed their discomfort at everyone assuming they're ready for sex.

This myth is behind the revolting double standard shown by some when they refer to stories of older women having sex with young teenaged boys.

 

[felixthecat]

Ive been thinking about this and how/why thinking has changed. The internet and social media now deters a lot of stars from dubious behaviour simply because its easier to take and share photographs, people post on social media about their exploits (teenage girls spend half their life on FB and similar it seems), emails / phones etc are relatively easily hacked by the media. Most celebs go out of their way to avoid groupies and even ordinary fans in anything other than public situations because of this. I remember well being able to get backstage at gigs so, so easily - nowadays the security around most bands of any note is phenomenal and the 'stars' are wrapped in a protective bubble to prevent bad press.

 

[belboid]

Which is way I said "obviously people develop at different rates". I've taught over 2000 kids in the last 20 years. There is littlle youcan generalise about that age group.


Does it matter to the essential point I was making? That a popular rock star has significantly more status in the eyes of a teenaged fan, than an average 25 year old would?

Cos if it doesn't matter, it seems an odd thing to score points over...

I thought I was having a conversation, I have zero interest in scoring points. There have been several people talking about what 13/14/15 year olds ARE like, as if it is fixed, the point I was making, was agreeing with you about, was that that is not really the case.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Not ready. I've worked with young men who have bravely expressed their discomfort at everyone assuming they're ready for sex.

This myth is behind the revolting double standard shown by some when they refer to stories of older women having sex with young teenaged boys.

Fair enough. fwiw my experience was one of not even getting the chance to find out if I was ready. Lots of older teenage boys pretend not to be virgins. Even later, 18-20 years old - at that age, you definitely don't admit to virginity. I only discovered much later that I had been far from the only one.

 

[bimble]

Not ready, or just not given the chance?!

I think it's a bit more complicated than that either / or. Girls are sold romance from the age of about 2 for instance, more than boys are. But also I reckon 'status' - not always fame but something like it - does play a part who is attractive to teenaged girls (as in, why do 16 year old girls often tend to fancy men quite a lot older than them instead of just getting a crush on a boy in their class).

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think it's a bit more complicated than that either / or. Girls are sold romance from the age of about 2 for instance, more than boys are. But also I reckon 'status' - not always fame but something like it - does play a part who is attractive to teenaged girls (as in, why do 16 year old girls often tend to fancy men quite a lot older than them instead of just getting a crush on a boy in their class).

And in case I sound like I'm resentful, I'm not at all. I was hopeless with girls at that age. It wasn't their fault I was hopeless.

But being hopeless isn't quite the same as not being ready.

 

[Winot]

who would it play out on? Especially back then. Everyone couldn't have Suzi Quatro, even if she'd wanted them to

From my experience (at an all boys school in the early 1980s) it played out in nerdiness - painstakingly memorising the words to the songs; copying the band logo into the back of your exercise book; reciting the names of the band members. Much like male football fanaticism.

 

[belboid]

From my experience (at an all boys school in the early 1980s) it played out in nerdiness - painstakingly memorising the words to the songs; copying the band logo into the back of your exercise book; reciting the names of the band members. Much like male football fanaticism.

exercise book? Not on to your schoolbag? Lightweight.

 

[Idris2002]

exercise book? Not on to your schoolbag? Lightweight.

In my (awful) school, the logo on the rucksack was specifically for metal bands.

 

[tendril]

Ah no that's not what I meant, but I do agree. What I meant was that one teenage girl might consent and one of the same age might panic and feel very much a child not an adult when confronted with the opportunity for sex. Some of course, due to the power held by the adult, would override that fear and go along with it. All I meant was that it's a hugely subjective discussion. The adult should always, always say no. My point is not that it's acceptable if a girl has consented, just trying to think about the position of being that girl.

That's sort of what I was getting at when I made this post

 

[smokedout]

seems to me girls want to be with the object of their adoration while my experience was the thought you could be if not that person then like that person.

This is what I remember, if you didn't want to be a footballer you wanted to be a rock star - thats why the misogyny displayed was so toxic, it was reproduced by teenage boys in the playgrounds and later clubs and pubs

 

[Orang Utan]

Luc Bessons "Leon" has overtones, and in the original script they became lovers, although this was rewritten in the final version.

Sarah's relationship with the charismatic yet sinister Goblin King in Labyrinth has flirtatious, if not sexual, overtones. It ends with Sarah realising that Jareth has no power over her and that such power is an illusion. You could certainly draw parallels with young girls being bewitched by older male pop stars.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Right so if your will tells you it'd be nice to fuck a kid you go ahead and do it then . That's crowleys advice. And page and Bowie oth seem to have took their guru crowleys advice to heart, and fucked some kids because their will dictated it so .

Will isn't what you want. It's not about satisfying desires. Do yourself a favour and do some reading - even just a hundred words or so will do - on Crowley's ideas about "true will".
BTW, Bowie was never a Crowleyite or a Thelemite. He mentioned Crowley in a song. Once.
As for Page, he was and is a collector of occult writings and paraphenalia, but in 30-plus years of knowing people who actually take occult philosophies seriously, I've not yet met one who took Page's occultism seriously, or ever worked with him. I know quite a few that took advantage of his library, though.

But hey, if you want to bang on about what Crowley's "advice" meant, and construct some kind of "web of nonces" tied to it, go right ahead. You'll be following luminaries such as David Icke down that path.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Cliff Richard.

Cliff Richard is Satan.

 

[Pickman's model]

Cliff Richard is Satan.

cliff richard is worse than satan as satan doesn't pretend to be a christian and was never a mate of mary whitehouse's.

 

[Casually Red]

Julie Burchill on Marc Bolan's appeal for her demographic: "you wanted to shag him, mother him, and be him".

Casually Red on Jul..spit..Burch...bokes...appeal to his demographic .

" pity Bolan never crashed his mini into her "

 

[killer b]

Sarah's relationship with the charismatic yet sinister Goblin King in Labyrinth has flirtatious, if not sexual, overtones. It ends with Sarah realising that Jareth has no power over her and that such power is an illusion. You could certainly draw parallels with young girls being bewitched by older male pop stars.

I'm not sure if there's much bewitchment going on, really - girls are conditioned to find success attractive (for fairly obvious reasons - for pretty much all of human history, the vast majority of woman's security and safety has been entirely dependent on some man or the other, and a successful man is more likely to be able to provide that safety and security). It's not at all surprising that, when discovering their sexuality for the first time it's the most visibly and glamorously successful people - pop stars & actors, but also closer to home older men, teachers etc - end up the object of their devotion.

(/mansplain)

 

[ViolentPanda]

Most people on this thread seem to accept that the law is not there to deal say a 14 or 15 year old having a sexual relationship with a 16 or 17 yr old...and are talking about adults in there mid 20s upwards having sex with under aged children/young people.

The law is absolutely there to deal with "...a 14 or 15 year old having a sexual relationship with a 16 or 17 yr old...". The majority of USI (unlawful sexual intercourse) convictions are for such relationships, rather than for more obviously predatory relationships.

So with that in mind I think it is important for adults to be absolute (personally I prefer the word clear) about it is never acceptable for an adult to have sex with an under aged child/young person. Some of the things I read on here in the earlier genuinely disturbed or concerned me.

The problem is that the law is, and always has been, unevenly enforced (many people have mentioned Bill Wyman), so the message that the actual statute sends is weak enough that people break it - some unintentionally, some deliberately.