Pop and Rock Stars... and underage girls

[Casually Red]

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Someone at the BBC was either taking the piss or issuing a subliminal cry for help when that was invented

 

[Rebelda]

I agree with that, and it's probably counter productive to simply tell a 14 or 15 year old that they've been abused or raped (and as you say that too depends on the circumstances). It's important to say all that, but the way the girl/young woman thinks about it doesn't alter what the adult male did. And that's even more the case when you are talking about popstars who have something like an infrastructure in place for gathering up groupies.

I agree. It's difficult to get my head around though, because if I think about it in my own terms my first boyfriend shouldn't have gone out with me. And really, actually, he shouldn't have. But he did, and luckily it didn't do me any harm and I was completely safe. So at the same time as thinking he shouldn't have, I also think he was an acceptable first boyfriend. I'm not airing my dirty laundry for the fun of it, only because I think some posters were aghast at ambivalent posts by women early on in the thread and I'm trying to show how for some of us navigating these topics requires a lot of dual thinking. It's because some of us have to square it with our own experiences that we haven't been able to be quite so binary; that's the case for me anyway, it's not due to any particular love for Bowie.

 

[existentialist]

Unfortunately the hysteria is overshadowing the measured debate. As it usually does on urban

TBF, a discussion like this wouldn't have even happened on most other boards.

 

[belboid]

It's worth pointing out that if we're talking unequal power dynamics, Bowie was one of the most famous rock stars on the planet. Which to a rock star-crazy teenager made him just about the most powerful person in existance.

He wasn't that famous at that point. The tour started in some pretty dingy dives, by the end he'd got into fairly big, 'proper' venues, but he was still small time compared to the metal bands.

 

[existentialist]

I don't think that's fair. There have been some heated moments, but I think this thread has been impressively measured. No one that I can remember has been told they are in denial - personal contributions have been respected. Let's not make it hysterical by saying it has been

In some ways, Urban has changed fundamentally. I can recall, probably more than 5 years ago, that any thread with the slightest whiff of noncery about it would have been deluged with the usual posturing and ranting about just how violently a variety of posters would extract retribution. Of course it still goes on - my ignore list is, hopefully temporarily, a little plumper than usual right now - but it's a minority sport now, and it is still possible to have a meaningful discussion about the issue without being shouted down by the "hang 'em up by the bollocks" tendency. Who knows, perhaps even they might be learning something from reading some of the more thoughtful posts?

Whatever, I think it's a feather in Urban's cap that this has been possible, and without the usual nannying and overt control that is how some boards attempt - usually unsuccessfully - to regulate debate.

 

[emanymton]

I agree. It's difficult to get my head around though, because if I think about it in my own terms my first boyfriend shouldn't have gone out with me. And really, actually, he shouldn't have. But he did, and luckily it didn't do me any harm and I was completely safe. So at the same time as thinking he shouldn't have, I also think he was an acceptable first boyfriend. I'm not airing my dirty laundry for the fun of it, only because I think some posters were aghast at ambivalent posts by women early on in the thread and I'm trying to show how for some of us navigating these topics requires a lot of dual thinking. It's because some of us have to square it with our own experiences that we haven't been able to be quite so binary; that's the case for me anyway, it's not due to any particular love for Bowie.

I think there are differences though, for one thing your boyfriend was probably not a famous pop star. But the main difference that these where not relationship as such, the girls wanted to hang out with pop stars and sex was basically the price they paid for that privilege. Any sexual relationship between a teenager and an adult has the potential for harm. The particular circumstances with groupies increase the risk of harm in my opinion, and it us down to the adult to evaluate that risk not the teenager.

I think this post from earlier in the thread is really relevant.

From the comments section after the last link I posted, a former groupie writes:

Bill LuckyJuly 21, 2015 at 12:33 PM

This is Susan, not Bill and I was one of those 13 year olds who slept with 30 yr old musicians, None so famous,BUT< what was weird, is that it was a socail model. As if the oppression of sex and women stemming from the Victorian age and before, finally, with the onset of Birth Control, allowed women to become sexually active. THE MISSING piece was that we were not women, we were children and speaking for myself, if these guys would have been willing to hang out with me, like they did with men, I would have been just as happy, The sex was the only way they were willikng to connect with me, I'm not sure if this is a legal matter as much as a social one. I'd LOVE to be able to talk to the very famous men, and ask, with no threat of legal action, how they feel about that behaviour today. Are they regretful....I have actuallhy spoken to one of the men I slept with, who will remain anonymous, but he was well known in the late 60s and his band is remembered will today. He was charmig and apologetic and asked if I was (at now 50) ok? He admitted it was the times and though not justifying the behaviour, he could see that we was swept up in it and never questioned the long term effect it might have on us young girls. I hope this helps give some insight in to the experience....I am ok, REALLY ok, but I did have to do some real therapy and self exploration, Some self forgiveness that I didn't take better care of me, even at the age of 13 and some serious forgivemess to my mom, for allowing me to run the streets at such a young age......

 

[tendril]

In some ways, Urban has changed fundamentally. I can recall, probably more than 5 years ago, that any thread with the slightest whiff of noncery about it would have been deluged with the usual posturing and ranting about just how violently a variety of posters would extract retribution. Of course it still goes on - my ignore list is, hopefully temporarily, a little plumper than usual right now - but it's a minority sport now, and it is still possible to have a meaningful discussion about the issue without being shouted down by the "hang 'em up by the bollocks" tendency. Who knows, perhaps even they might be learning something from reading some of the more thoughtful posts?

Whatever, I think it's a feather in Urban's cap that this has been possible, and without the usual nannying and overt control that is how some boards attempt - usually unsuccessfully - to regulate debate.

You're right. Tbh I haven't been posting much apart from crap in the bandwidth thread for a number of years now, but I do remember when one would be severely castigated for not toeing the Urban Party Line as set out by a few very vocal posters.

 

[Rebelda]

I think there are differences though, for one thing your boyfriend was probably not a famous pop star. But the main difference that these where not relationship as such, the girls wanted to hang out with pop stars and sex was basically the price they paid for that privilege. Any sexual relationship between a teenager and an adult has the potential for harm. The particular circumstances with groupies increase the risk of harm in my opinion, and it us down to the adult to evaluate that risk not the teenager.

I think this post from earlier in the thread is really relevant.

I'm not saying my experience is the same as the groupie/pop-star scenario, my point was that my experience shapes how I react to topics like this.

You're right about potential for harm - which is why it should definitely be treated as verboten, even though it will probably always happen.

I do think the question of groupies is fascinating - more so than the adult pop star, for whom the answer is simple. No. Nope. Just, no. Don't. But girls/young women tripping on excitement, adult environment and quite possibly all sorts of drugs, what does one say to/about them? I know just how bloody hard teenage/preteen girls love their idols. Take a bullet for them hard. Spend all day in a dream-relationship with them hard. So if sex was offered some of them would definitely consent (some I'm sure would blanche and reveal themselves to be children). I mean, of course the answer is that you aren't tying to dissuade the girl. That it rests on the adult to, well, not fuck her. Maybe pop stars need moral guards as well as body guards, to protect others from them. The ego/power trip must be enormous (I do not feel sorry for, or excuse any of them - eta: but I think history has shown these particular people to be incapable of evaluating the risk, and therefore maybe they shouldn't be trusted to).

 

[bimble]

I agree. It's difficult to get my head around though, because if I think about it in my own terms my first boyfriend shouldn't have gone out with me. And really, actually, he shouldn't have. But he did, and luckily it didn't do me any harm and I was completely safe. So at the same time as thinking he shouldn't have, I also think he was an acceptable first boyfriend. I'm not airing my dirty laundry for the fun of it, only because I think some posters were aghast at ambivalent posts by women early on in the thread and I'm trying to show how for some of us navigating these topics requires a lot of dual thinking. It's because some of us have to square it with our own experiences that we haven't been able to be quite so binary; that's the case for me anyway, it's not due to any particular love for Bowie.

Great post. My laundry similar to yours (first serious boyfriend was a lot older than me, like a very lot, and we're still friends now).

 

[killer b]

In some ways, Urban has changed fundamentally. I can recall, probably more than 5 years ago, that any thread with the slightest whiff of noncery about it would have been deluged with the usual posturing and ranting about just how violently a variety of posters would extract retribution. Of course it still goes on - my ignore list is, hopefully temporarily, a little plumper than usual right now - but it's a minority sport now, and it is still possible to have a meaningful discussion about the issue without being shouted down by the "hang 'em up by the bollocks" tendency. Who knows, perhaps even they might be learning something from reading some of the more thoughtful posts?

That's just not true. The Peel thread I linked to above has plenty of thoughtful posts, as have many others on similar topics. I think you just remember the shouting best is all.

 

[Pickman's model]

He wasn't that famous at that point. The tour started in some pretty dingy dives, by the end he'd got into fairly big, 'proper' venues, but he was still small time compared to the metal bands.

first mention of david bowie from 'the times', 7/3/1968, p. 7

but by july 1972 bowie was playing such dingy dives as the festival hall: and being reviewed in the times:

 

[Winot]

Really interesting discussion. Leaving aside the sex thing for a moment, I wonder whether boys have the same hero worship/fanaticism as girls (my impression is that they don't) and what it says about gender roles/expectations that girls do?

 

[Winot]

Or is it just that boys' fanaticism is not played out in a sexual way?

 

[Idris2002]

I'm not saying my experience is the same as the groupie/pop-star scenario, my point was that my experience shapes how I react to topics like this.

You're right about potential for harm - which is why it should definitely be treated as verboten, even though it will probably always happen.

I do think the question of groupies is fascinating - more so than the adult pop star, for whom the answer is no. Nope. Just, no. Don't. But girls/young women tripping on excitement, adult environment and quite possibly all sorts of drugs, what does one say to/about them? I know just how bloody hard teenage/preteen girls love their idols. Take a bullet for them hard. Spend all day in a dream-relationship with them hard. So if sex was offered some of them would definitely consent (some I'm sure would blanche and reveal themselves to be children). I mean, of course the answer is that you aren't tying to dissuade the girl. That it rests on the adult to, well, not fuck her. Maybe pop stars need moral guards as well as body guards, to protect others from them. The ego/power trip must be enormous (I do not feel sorry for, or excuse any of them - eta: but I think history has shown these particular people to be incapable to evaluating the risk, and therefore maybe they shouldn't be trusted to).

I can't find it on the net, but I'm sure I read a Simon Frith thing years ago where the claim was that the appeal of being a groupie was that the object of the groupie's affections would be moving on once the gig was over, and not staying around to cause complications in the groupie's home town - especially if there was still a strong sexual double standard in that home town.

 

[Rebelda]

Really interesting discussion. Leaving aside the sex thing for a moment, I wonder whether boys have the same hero worship/fanaticism as girls (my impression is that they don't) and what it says about gender roles/expectations that girls do?

I was wondering similar last night. Not being a boy I don't know, but it seemed that at the age I was worshipping pop/rock stars my male peers were idolising heroes of their own sex. Lusting after famous women seemed to come much later, and wasn't the same kind of fantasy (as far as I could tell). Be interesting to hear some male perspectives eta: and indeed, male opinions of preteen girls going completely crackers over pop stars. At the time I mean, what did you make of it as a 12 year old boy?

 

[belboid]

but by july 1972 bowie was playing such dingy dives as the festival hall: and being reviewed in the times:View attachment 81995

and playing in small venues in universities, and a variety of disco's. As the Ziggy tour went on, he played bigger places each time, but, even at the end, he was 'only' in 1500 seaters, a long way shy of the biggest bands of the day.

 

[belboid]

Or is it just that boys' fanaticism is not played out in a sexual way?

who would it play out on? Especially back then. Everyone couldn't have Suzi Quatro, even if she'd wanted them to

 

[Pickman's model]

I can't find it on the net, but I'm sure I read a Simon Frith thing years ago where the claim was that the appeal of being a groupie was that the object of the groupie's affections would be moving on once the gig was over, and not staying around to cause complications in the groupie's home town - especially if there was still a strong sexual double standard in that home town.

maybe something akin to the motivation of baseball groupies


journal of sport & social issues 22:1 (1998)

 

[Winot]

I was wondering similar last night. Not being a boy I don't know, but it seemed that at the age I was worshipping pop/rock stars my male peers were idolising heroes of their own sex. Lusting after famous women seemed to come much later, and wasn't the same kind of fantasy (as far as I could tell). Be interesting to hear some male perspectives eta: and indeed, male opinions of preteen girls going completely crackers over pop stars. At the time I mean, what did you make of it as a 12 year old boy?

Yes I remember having some unsavoury thoughts about Mark Knopfler

 

[Pickman's model]

I was wondering similar last night. Not being a boy I don't know, but it seemed that at the age I was worshipping pop/rock stars my male peers were idolising heroes of their own sex. Lusting after famous women seemed to come much later, and wasn't the same kind of fantasy (as far as I could tell). Be interesting to hear some male perspectives eta: and indeed, male opinions of preteen girls going completely crackers over pop stars. At the time I mean, what did you make of it as a 12 year old boy?

seems to me girls want to be with the object of their adoration while my experience was the thought you could be if not that person then like that person.

 

[TopCat]

In some ways, Urban has changed fundamentally. I can recall, probably more than 5 years ago, that any thread with the slightest whiff of noncery about it would have been deluged with the usual posturing and ranting about just how violently a variety of posters would extract retribution. Of course it still goes on - my ignore list is, hopefully temporarily, a little plumper than usual right now - but it's a minority sport now, and it is still possible to have a meaningful discussion about the issue without being shouted down by the "hang 'em up by the bollocks" tendency. Who knows, perhaps even they might be learning something from reading some of the more thoughtful posts?

Whatever, I think it's a feather in Urban's cap that this has been possible, and without the usual nannying and overt control that is how some boards attempt - usually unsuccessfully - to regulate debate.

Some posters here who are not reticent in sticking the knife in over sexual politics are all of a sudden looking for nuance and making excuses for Bowie. This will bite them in the Arsenal.

 

[cesare]

and playing in small venues in universities, and a variety of disco's. As the Ziggy tour went on, he played bigger places each time, but, even at the end, he was 'only' in 1500 seaters, a long way shy of the biggest bands of the day.

By July 72 he'd had two singles in the top 10 though. It was building up to a lot of success: David Bowie | full Official Chart History | Official Charts Company

 

[Idris2002]

seems to me girls want to be with the object of their adoration while my experience was the thought you could be if not that person then like that person.

Julie Burchill on Marc Bolan's appeal for her demographic: "you wanted to shag him, mother him, and be him".

 

[Rebelda]

seems to me girls want to be with the object of their adoration while my experience was the thought you could be if not that person then like that person.

Yeah. You can see where Lacanian identity politics (woman as receptacle, the have and not have of the phallus/man) came from, but I'm not sure it's as simple as just wanting to be with the famous man. Some of it was wanting to be what these stars were, not to be male but to have what they had.

 

[emanymton]

I'm not saying my experience is the same as the groupie/pop-star scenario, my point was that my experience shapes how I react to topics like this.

You're right about potential for harm - which is why it should definitely be treated as verboten, even though it will probably always happen.

I do think the question of groupies is fascinating - more so than the adult pop star, for whom the answer is no. Nope. Just, no. Don't. But girls/young women tripping on excitement, adult environment and quite possibly all sorts of drugs, what does one say to/about them? I know just how bloody hard teenage/preteen girls love their idols. Take a bullet for them hard. Spend all day in a dream-relationship with them hard. So if sex was offered some of them would definitely consent (some I'm sure would blanche and reveal themselves to be children). I mean, of course the answer is that you aren't tying to dissuade the girl. That it rests on the adult to, well, not fuck her. Maybe pop stars need moral guards as well as body guards, to protect others from them. The ego/power trip must be enormous (I do not feel sorry for, or excuse any of them - eta: but I think history has shown these particular people to be incapable of evaluating the risk, and therefore maybe they shouldn't be trusted to).

I agree with most of this, but I am not sure that the ones who are the most likely to say no to sex are the ones who are still closest to being children. It would be extremely difficult for any teenage girls to say no once she finds herself in that situation, and I think it would probably take more maturity not less. Not that I am saying that only the most mature would say no.

 

[belboid]

I haved long pondered about the development of empathy. I obviously felt sympathy in my early adulthood when I heard about natural disasters... but I think it was well into my twenties before I developed true empathy - really and automatically felt something of the pain that the flood victime (or whatever) felt. Obviously people develop this at different rates... but I don't think I was a monster. Certainly most teenagers don't have it yet (hence the greater incidence of bullying at that age).

it all depends tho, doesnt it? One of the main groups I work with at the moment is young carers, teenagers who have been looking after (usually) their parents, often on their own, and who have been doing for years. They tend to be pretty good at empathy, and tend tp be rather more mature than other teens their age. Many of them are actually more mature than various 20odd year olds that I've known.

The point being, you can't really talk about '13/14/15 year olds are like this/have reached this stage of development', because they really are all over the shop, some are still astoundingly childish, some are astoundingly grown up.

 

[Pickman's model]

Julie Burchill on Marc Bolan's appeal for her demographic: "you wanted to shag him, mother him, and be him".

pls could we keep quotes from the nefandous burchill to a minimum?

 

[belboid]

By July 72 he'd had two singles in the top 10 though. It was building up to a lot of success: David Bowie | full Official Chart History | Official Charts Company

yes, he was getting there. But he still wasn't there then.

 

[Idris2002]

pls could we keep quotes from the nefandous burchill to a minimum?

"The Evil One. SAY NOT HER NAME".

 

[Pickman's model]

By July 72 he'd had two singles in the top 10 though. It was building up to a lot of success: David Bowie | full Official Chart History | Official Charts Company

there is also, i think, a pleasant feeling about being one of the cognescenti, being in the avant garde if you will, one of the elect who have their own cult.