DaveCinzano
WATCH OUT, GEORGE, HE'S GOT A SCREWDRIVER!
But Nabokov was a writer of characters, and on this thread the discussion is of actual, real adult men fucking underage girls.
Pop and Rock Stars... and underage girls
- Thread starter LiamO
- Start date
bimble
floofy
ok. Sorry about the derail then. As you were.
Winot
I wholeheartedley agree with your viewpoint
I assume you mean "shout rapist at Humbert". Nabakov was the author, and it was just a story (albeit a superbly written one).
trabuquera
Modesty Bag
Meanwhile, in 2016, "questions are being asked" about why rap artist Tyga (aged 25) appeared to be so very interested in commenting on a 14-yr-old's Instagram feed, and all the old arguments about 'predatory' girls who 'look much older' re-emerged yet again (Teenager, 14, rubbishes Tyga cheating claims as she breaks down on camera)
... And he'd already had his feet held to the media fire last year about exactly what he was doing 'dating' Kylie Jenner (then aged 17, one of the Kardashian clan) and releasing a song about it claiming "They say she young/She should have waited/ Shee a big girl, dawg, when she stimulated" ... <boaks>
And R Kelly is still not in prison. Just in case anyone thought that the "it was different in the 70s and they'd never try it now" argument stands. It's all about fame and power and the illusion of showbiz stardust magic, and how much the general public (and girls' parents and the media and whatever) are willing to overlook for that. Turns out that it's a lot. Still.
... And he'd already had his feet held to the media fire last year about exactly what he was doing 'dating' Kylie Jenner (then aged 17, one of the Kardashian clan) and releasing a song about it claiming "They say she young/She should have waited/ Shee a big girl, dawg, when she stimulated" ... <boaks>
And R Kelly is still not in prison. Just in case anyone thought that the "it was different in the 70s and they'd never try it now" argument stands. It's all about fame and power and the illusion of showbiz stardust magic, and how much the general public (and girls' parents and the media and whatever) are willing to overlook for that. Turns out that it's a lot. Still.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Yep. A lot of folk take "do what thou wilt" to mean "do what you like", when it's fairly obvious from Crowley's writing, and from accounts by his contemporaries that he meant "do what your will wishes you to do".
I've also seen people taking the "love under will" bit as some sort of endorsement of sexual slavery, when it's simply a call to control the power of the heart through the power of the mind.
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Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
"These are small, but the ones out there are far away".
That's the essence of the continuing argument about the book. Some of its defenders say that to the shouters there's no such thing as "just a story"...
Except her own. She was 15, not a defence of Bowie by the way but a bit disturbing the way that internet rumours and celebrity gossip are now being discussed as verified facts.
A truly fascinating discussion.
i'm from 1951 and evolved along the mod hippy cross radical peacenik left liberal industrial militant line. Taking the long view back, i'm now quite angry about some of the thinking and activities that i've engaged in over that period, and if time could be reversed i'd be quite happy to undo some of those misjudgements.
One good example relates to an unsavoury organisation named PIE (paedophile information exchange). There was a moment when PIE was given the 'benefit of the doubt' by some on the Left, and unfortunately i remember engaging in a few arguments that reflected this general attitude. Today, forty odd years later, it is easy to recognise that that situation was a disastrous and disgusting mistake. PIE were not a legitimate body seeking to help an oppressed group of people in need of liberation - they were actually a dangerous facilitating group which included some maniacs with an intention of abusing kids.
What were those involved in all that situation thinking? i truly don't know, i can only shake my head slowly.. They must have been partly deluded, and partly unwitting victims of the then existing radical circumstances and thirst for social change.
Who said it best? 'The past is another country, they do things differently there'?
i'm from 1951 and evolved along the mod hippy cross radical peacenik left liberal industrial militant line. Taking the long view back, i'm now quite angry about some of the thinking and activities that i've engaged in over that period, and if time could be reversed i'd be quite happy to undo some of those misjudgements.
One good example relates to an unsavoury organisation named PIE (paedophile information exchange). There was a moment when PIE was given the 'benefit of the doubt' by some on the Left, and unfortunately i remember engaging in a few arguments that reflected this general attitude. Today, forty odd years later, it is easy to recognise that that situation was a disastrous and disgusting mistake. PIE were not a legitimate body seeking to help an oppressed group of people in need of liberation - they were actually a dangerous facilitating group which included some maniacs with an intention of abusing kids.
What were those involved in all that situation thinking? i truly don't know, i can only shake my head slowly.. They must have been partly deluded, and partly unwitting victims of the then existing radical circumstances and thirst for social change.
Who said it best? 'The past is another country, they do things differently there'?
8den
No I'm pretty sure that was 8ball...
Thats really odd because Sable's account seems to match Maddox's account right to very specific details, right up to the guy trying to attack Bowie "I'm going Kill you".
It seems like both women are talking about the same night.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Could be that one is embellishing, or both are. Or just that both have this as an honest memory, but one or both are conflating events that happened on different days. Memory is unreliable at the best of times, and I'm guessing the memory of the period was rather fuggy for both of them later on. Whatever, it's not so surprising to hear different versions of the same event told with honesty by two different people.
bimble
floofy
That was a pretty disturbing read. But yes, also surprised to learn just now that until
1929 it was fine in the uk to marry a 12 year old girl.
8den
No I'm pretty sure that was 8ball...
Quite, and despite the best efforts of Larry Curly and Moe, I'm not excusing or justifying Bowie's behaviour, I'm just asking to see credible reports that this was more than just an isolated incident, before I decide that Bowie, Page were using virginal blood to communion with Aleister Crowley so they could summon Moloko or whatever the fuck Casually Red is ranting about.
SaskiaJayne
Rural Guerrilla
Don't beat yourself up because I'm not beating myself up. Start from the place that with no video, let alone no internet, if we didn't see it on tv when it was broadcast then probably we didn't even know about it. I didn't stop in on Saturday night & watch the Black & White minstrel show, I was out caning it, as I guess you were. My take on PIE at the time was that it was part of the gay movement, I think this was the view of many. Age of consent was set at 21 for consenting men in '67, there was an ongoing campaign for equality to get the gay aoc down to 16 & that PIE was mostly part of that which is what caused it to be in the news. Many at the time were against legalisation of gay sex & were utterly outraged at the suggestion of dropping aoc to 16 to allow of 'buggering of schoolboys' as many in the media referred to it at the time.
Lucy Fur
Well-Known Member
The accounts I've read of Maddox losing her virginity to Bowie make no mention of Bowie getting attacked, only in Sables account. Can you link please?
Also the book I linked to (Please Kill Me) only quotes Sable (at least in the chapter I linked too).
But bye the bye, how do you now feel about it all, a one off, or part of a scene where such behaviour was common and encouraged, and ultimately abusive?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
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littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
That attitude persisted right up to the 2000s, right up until the law was finally equalised.
Was she 12 in the book? I've never read it so my 'knowledge' of it is limited to Sting's reference and conversations with everyone from schoolteachers to workmates (who'd probably never read it either).
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
I was persuaded to. Its not some knotty tome its a poetical read in places. Humbert Humbert (the nonce, its told 1st person by him) is the best example of the unreliable narrator.
8den
No I'm pretty sure that was 8ball...
I believe it was linked earlier on the thread, I'll look for it when I have a moment.
Ive already gone on the record earlier on the thread, stating, for example, that Page's relationship with Sable was incredibly sick and morally reprehensible.
CR#s absolutist position has not been particularly helpful, but you jacketing mine and Pickman's model posts in there with that Crowley is - as you already know - absolutely ingenuous. But then that's what you do, isn't it?
Are you going to answer Lucy Fur's question or not? You deliberately choose to answer questions you ghave not been asked, and in so doing ignore the ones you have been.
Lucy Fur asked
and you answered with some old guff about Page.
Just stop wriggling (if you can) and either piss or get off the pot.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yet bowie's was tender and caring? this smacks of that cognitive dissonance we hear so much about.
Was 8den not refering to Maddox and Page?
I think I remember cos I pointed out this morning that Maddox's 'incredibly sick and morally reprehensible' relationship'with Page began post-Bowie.
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spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
I think our attitudes to rape are understandably knee-jerk. Rape is always, always wrong. All rape. Including having sex with willing underage girls.
But rapists... Let's face it. We allknow rapists. We probably just don't know who they are. People who, when younger fucked hopelessly drunk people. Or who kept putting the moves on their partner til he or she gave up protesting... And some of them went on to be better men. Good men, in fact.
It doesn't excuse what they did at all, but we can't fix someone in our minds as RAPIST and let that negate every other thing we think or feel about them. There are too many rapists. Life is too long. People do many other terrible things... Not all people, but lots.
And so with Bowie, and Peel we have men who did a terrible thing. Probably, realistically, more than once. But who, as best we know, changed and stopped doing the terrible thing and spent the rest of their lives in appropriate relationships with empowered women. Who did good things for people. Who became good men.
But because we are rightly unequivocal about rape, I think we, as a society, find it hard to articulate complex but positive feelings about a rapist.
But rapists... Let's face it. We allknow rapists. We probably just don't know who they are. People who, when younger fucked hopelessly drunk people. Or who kept putting the moves on their partner til he or she gave up protesting... And some of them went on to be better men. Good men, in fact.
It doesn't excuse what they did at all, but we can't fix someone in our minds as RAPIST and let that negate every other thing we think or feel about them. There are too many rapists. Life is too long. People do many other terrible things... Not all people, but lots.
And so with Bowie, and Peel we have men who did a terrible thing. Probably, realistically, more than once. But who, as best we know, changed and stopped doing the terrible thing and spent the rest of their lives in appropriate relationships with empowered women. Who did good things for people. Who became good men.
But because we are rightly unequivocal about rape, I think we, as a society, find it hard to articulate complex but positive feelings about a rapist.
Yep. I was correct. 8den definitely refered to Page and Maddox, not Page and Sable. Give it up man. You're all over the place.
* steals *
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
there's lots of alkies don't regard themselves as alkies, don't change the facts much.
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