Pop and Rock Stars... and underage girls

[littlebabyjesus]

Its interesting that in the UK children aged 10 are held to be responsible for criminal acts but deemed unable (because of their age) to make responsible decisions in other areas.

tbh I think 12 and under, it's rape whatever, above that possible grey zone, is about right. 10 as the age of criminal responsibility is too young, imo.

 

[eoin_k]

You can take on board comments about teenagers' agency and the complexity of the issues, but still note that nobody is defending this sort of behaviour with examples from their own adult life (or that of their adult friends). If some people chooses not to interpret these sort of experiences as abusive who are the rest of us to say otherwise, particularly if they maintain that view into adult life, but it is telling that nobody has posted anecdotes about their adult mates bringing fourteen-year-old partners down the pub on a Friday night.

 

[Thora]

I find myself quite incapable of demonstrating such tolerances myself (thinking of your post, SpangleChick .My daughter embarked on a horrible relationship, thankfully very short-lived, with a much older man (she was 15, he was 26): I find I am still, over 20 years later, utterly incandescent with rage about this. But worse, I was an out of control teenager myself and far worse things happened to me than a week long 'affair' with an older man. Obviously, I carry coruscating guilt and failure fears. My daughter though, who insists she was 'in control', still considers my rage (and subsequent actions) to have been inappropriate and needless - it almost caused a long painful rift between us...and this disconnect kind of illustrates the complexities since we very much want our children to experience a freedom and open-mindedness to explore their own sexuality, independence and adolescence.
Whilst I came to terms with my own bad decisions, I have been unable (or perhaps unwilling) to move on from my failings as a parent, including double standards and hypocrisies aplenty.

I wonder how David Bowie felt looking back once his own daughter was 13 or 14.

 

[frogwoman]

Can't answer for frogwoman (would not dare to) but when I saw her post, asking about whether it's at all relevant here what the girl/woman everyone is talking about actually said and thought about the whole thing, I thought - good question.
Reminds me of the recent story about Chrissie Hynde, and how it was apparently not ok for her to have an opinion about what her own experience was, or what it meant to her.

Seeing some very SHOUTY people on social media on both sides. Male and female. some refusing to believe that he was anything other than a saint and some shouting at everyone that is slightly sad about his death

 

[existentialist]

No, but the overwhelming majority of criminal offences include a mens rea element that refers to the state of mind of the offender (intention, negligence, reckless etc.).

Most of these Significant Ages are a bit of a bodge-up at the best of times. I think that the minimum age of criminal responsibility was introduced in 1933 (Children & Young Persons Act); before that time, there was no minimum, and children were liable to be prosecuted for offences. The UK is considered to be rather behind the times - in most European jurisdictions, it's 14.

So any attempt to apply logic to it (as I came close to doing) is futile. To some extent, the same is true of the age of consent, which is a pretty arbitrary number when you think about the range of levels of development that you can see in children from between 14 and 18.

And there are plenty of adults - including quite a few on here - whom I really wouldn't trust with a vote, regardless of their age

 

[Pickman's model]

You can take on board comments about teenagers' agency and the complexity of the issues, but still note that nobody is defending this sort of behaviour with examples from their own adult life (or that of their adult friends). If some people chooses not to interpret these sort of experiences as abusive who are the rest of us to say otherwise, particularly if they maintain that view into adult life, but it is telling that nobody has posted anecdotes about their adult mates bringing fourteen-year-old partners down the pub on a Friday night.

someone i know who runs a pub, at a squat party in kentish town on nye 1991/92 spent much of the evening cuddling a girl he layer found out (while at party) was 13. he was mortified and had the piss ripped for months. he was about 20 at the time.

 

[existentialist]

You can take on board comments about teenagers' agency and the complexity of the issues, but still note that nobody is defending this sort of behaviour with examples from their own adult life (or that of their adult friends). If some people chooses not to interpret these sort of experiences as abusive who are the rest of us to say otherwise, particularly if they maintain that view into adult life, but it is telling that nobody has posted anecdotes about their adult mates bringing fourteen-year-old partners down the pub on a Friday night.

I think it's important to note that nobody is defending this behaviour, period. I haven't seen anyone on this thread suggest that the allegation that Bowie had sex with a 13 year old was acceptable or should have been legal.

 

[existentialist]

I wonder how David Bowie felt looking back once his own daughter was 13 or 14.

I'm not a parent, but I imagine that quite a few parents will have had cringeworthy moments as they note their own kids passing milestones that have particular significance for them.

Between marriages, I did have a (brief) relationship with a woman who was just about young enough to have been my daughter. That causes the occasional curling of the toes, on reflection. Though she was 25 at the time, so I'm not making any terrible admissions here...

 

[trashpony]

owever, if the victim did not agree to it, and it was penetrative in nature, it can still be charged as rape under section 1.

Umm ... if a victim does not agree to 'it', and it's penetrative, it's rape whether the victim is 14, 40 or 82

 

[eoin_k]

I think it's important to note that nobody is defending this behaviour, period. I haven't seen anyone on this thread suggest that the allegation that Bowie had sex with a 13 year old was acceptable or should have been legal.

One poster has been quite keen to refer back to trolling on the original thread repeatedly, has focused on mitigating factors, has questioned the veracity of the women's accounts, has dismissed it as a one off incident, and has questioned whether anyone could prove that Bowie knew the age of the people he slept with. Read that how you will.

 

[Pickman's model]

One poster has been quite keen to refer back to trolling on the original thread repeatedly, has focused on mitigating factors, has questioned the veracity of the young women's accounts, has dismissed it as a one off incident, and has questioned whether anyone could prove that Bowie knew the age of the people he slept with. Read that how you will.

and strangely not a contrarian, which makes it worse

 

[campanula]

It is very easy to develop elastic interpretations when we take the sum total of our life expectations and experiences into account.
(nothing like stating the obvious but)

 

[Pickman's model]

One poster has been quite keen to refer back to trolling on the original thread repeatedly, has focused on mitigating factors, has questioned the veracity of the women's accounts, has dismissed it as a one off incident, and has questioned whether anyone could prove that Bowie knew the age of the people he slept with. Read that how you will.

well, that's one urbanite who will never meet my niece

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Which one of these actors arent age appropriate.

Hopefully not the one at the top of the pyramid!

 

[1%er]

tbh I think 12 and under, it's rape whatever, above that possible grey zone, is about right. 10 as the age of criminal responsibility is too young, imo.

I think I'd agree 10 seem a little young to be holding someone criminally responsible, there has just been a big public debate here about raising it to 16 from 12. I know a number of 12 years olds who are more mature (in their thinking and actions) than some 20 year olds. I find it strange that young adults can get married but can't vote or drink alcohol.

 

[killer b]

You can take on board comments about teenagers' agency and the complexity of the issues, but still note that nobody is defending this sort of behaviour with examples from their own adult life (or that of their adult friends). If some people chooses not to interpret these sort of experiences as abusive who are the rest of us to say otherwise, particularly if they maintain that view into adult life, but it is telling that nobody has posted anecdotes about their adult mates bringing fourteen-year-old partners down the pub on a Friday night.

actually, this just jogged my memory - in the mid 90s (I was a late teen) there was a couple in my extended friendship group, he was in his early 20s and she was 13 when they started going out. No-one seemed to think anything of it at the time, but looking back I'm quite surprised it wasn't an issue.

That said, there were some older men in that group who's predatory behaviour on girls who were past 16 still makes me cross today, whereas Jon and Adele actually seemed a nice couple (I still see her about occasionally, she's pretty cool).

 

[keybored]

I remember that as well, and it read like it was deliberately written as a warning.

Doesn't she become a nun or a born-again Christian by the end?

Edit: My bad, that was a different one, not "Little Orphan Amphetamine".

 

[alan_]

I think those say it all really, the 70s were massively fucked up.

Now hold on a second, I understand that you are getting shit from all directions and as a result may be willing to cling to anything to cast your arguments in a slightly better light, but those links "do not say it all really" in fact they hardly say anything at all relevant to the greater mass.
Also, the 70s were massively fucked up, who told you that? were they more fucked up than present times? Did you live through them?

 

[smokedout]

I think it's important to note that nobody is defending this behaviour, period. I haven't seen anyone on this thread suggest that the allegation that Bowie had sex with a 13 year old was acceptable or should have been legal.

Fuck's sake, isn't anyone interested in reading what Lori Maddox actually says about this, she was 15. The reason this is important is that in a lot of the scandal sheets where they talk about her being 13 its reported she lost her virginity to both David and Angie Bowie. This interview makes clear that she was 15, and that Angie wasn't present.

I looked into this some time ago, and what Bowie did, whilst very wrong, is only the tip of the iceberg and this stuff should be investigated just as it has been in other areas (as such facts are important). Personally I think 15 is different to 13, and there is very little moral difference between an adult having sex with a mature 15 year old or an immature 16 year old - but I don't think it's even the point, what was taking place was a deeply misogynist culture, where young women were exploited and seen as little more than sex objects at best and obscenely abused or raped at worst. Whilst the abuse of those who were obviously under-age and still children is probably the only area where charges could be brought and likely to draw the most criticism, the idea that someone gets a complete moral pass the second someone turns 16 is bollocks. This culture lasted long after the 70's and was present in the big hair metal bands of the 80s that were huge in the states, and probably most guitar based music scenes for the next 20/30 years. It may well still exist, Lori Maddox in her interview seems to think it does.

 

[8den]

Hopefully not the one at the top of the pyramid!

Yes Milas Kunis was 14 when the 70s show started...

Mila Kunis

 

[belboid]

It may well still exist

Ian Watkins

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Yes Milas Kunis was 14 when the 70s show started...

Mila Kunis

Good job I can't get my hands on a time machine then.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Ian Watkins

He's definitely not underage.

 

[killer b]

Good job I can't get my hands on a time machine then.

oh, come on.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

oh, come on.

Well knowing her age I'd turn the dials to the appropriate year. FWIW she's older than me.

 

[spanglechick]

I find myself quite incapable of demonstrating such tolerances myself (thinking of your post, SpangleChick .My daughter embarked on a horrible relationship, thankfully very short-lived, with a much older man (she was 15, he was 26): I find I am still, over 20 years later, utterly incandescent with rage about this. But worse, I was an out of control teenager myself and far worse things happened to me than a week long 'affair' with an older man. Obviously, I carry coruscating guilt and failure fears. My daughter though, who insists she was 'in control', still considers my rage (and subsequent actions) to have been inappropriate and needless - it almost caused a long painful rift between us...and this disconnect kind of illustrates the complexities since we very much want our children to experience a freedom and open-mindedness to explore their own sexuality, independence and adolescence.
Whilst I came to terms with my own bad decisions, I have been unable (or perhaps unwilling) to move on from my failings as a parent, including double standards and hypocrisies aplenty.

What I'm currently coming to think about is how our perspective on this kind of things develops. Young people do know their own minds, but lack the perspective to see the power imbalance. I, too, was sexually precocious as a teenager, and dallied with much older men (one 36 year old when I was 16 - though we did not go "all the way")... and I find myself wondering when I developed that understanding.

For me, becoming a teacher quite young (21 when I started my PGCE) meant that I found myself surrounded by 11-18 year olds and it became achingly clear how young they really are when their guard is down and they're not trying to be mature and worldly. For others, having a younger sibling or cousin might provide that reaisation. Obviously, becoming a parent makes it screamingly obvious... but without those experiences might it be harder to understand the essential vulnerabiity of a sexually precocious adolescent?

I haved long pondered about the development of empathy. I obviously felt sympathy in my early adulthood when I heard about natural disasters... but I think it was well into my twenties before I developed true empathy - really and automatically felt something of the pain that the flood victime (or whatever) felt. Obviously people develop this at different rates... but I don't think I was a monster. Certainly most teenagers don't have it yet (hence the greater incidence of bullying at that age).

And so I wonder if resisting the temptation of sexually provocative 14 year olds is something we mostly do when we're younger because we know we shouldn't, rather than fully understanding why. And that it might, therfore, be somthing we grow out of as our empathy and social experience grow. It's difficult to articulate this - I'm not excusing Bowie. Knowing it's wrong should be enough (just as a lack of empathy might stop a student in my class from not wanting to be disruptive because it wastes everyone's learning time... but they should just stop fucking about anyway)... but does perhaps explain why our perspective on this kind sexual offence changes over time.

 

[Thora]

Fuck's sake, isn't anyone interested in reading what Lori Maddox actually says about this, she was 15. The reason this is important is that in a lot of the scandal sheets where they talk about her being 13 its reported she lost her virginity to both David and Angie Bowie. This interview makes clear that she was 15, and that Angie wasn't present.

I looked into this some time ago, and what Bowie did, whilst very wrong, is only the tip of the iceberg and this stuff should be investigated just as it has been in other areas (as such facts are important). Personally I think 15 is different to 13, and there is very little moral difference between an adult having sex with a mature 15 year old or an immature 16 year old - but I don't think it's even the point, what was taking place was a deeply misogynist culture, where young women were exploited and seen as little more than sex objects at best and obscenely abused or raped at worst. Whilst the abuse of those who were obviously under-age and still children is probably the only area where charges could be brought and likely to draw the most criticism, the idea that someone gets a complete moral pass the second someone turns 16 is bollocks. This culture lasted long after the 70's and was present in the big hair metal bands of the 80s that were huge in the states, and probably most guitar based music scenes for the next 20/30 years. It may well still exist, Lori Maddox in her interview seems to think it does.

She has also said it was the night he played at the Long Beach arena, which was March 1973. She was born in November 1958 making her 14 years and 4 months old. She says she first met him 5 months earlier and he wanted to take her to his hotel room but she was terrified - so when she was 13. He also has sex with Sable Starr that night with Lori, Sable aged 15. Lori says Sable and her 13 year old sister Corel are both dating Iggy Pop at the time.
So, girls of 13, 14, 15. Not sure there is a huge difference.

 

[smokedout]

She has also said it was the night he played at the Long Beach arena, which was March 1973. She was born in November 1958 making her 14 years and 4 months old. She says she first met him 5 months earlier and he wanted to take her to his hotel room but she was terrified - so when she was 13. He also has sex with Sable Starr that night with Lori, Sable aged 15. Lori says Sable and her 13 year old sister Corel are both dating Iggy Pop at the time.
So, girls of 13, 14, 15. Not sure there is a huge difference.

are you saying she's lying in that interview?

 

[Thora]

are you saying she's lying in that interview?

Are you saying she's lying?

 

[smokedout]

no, shes quite clear, she was just short of 15 when she first met him and 15 when they had sex. Not that quibbling over months matters much, see my earlier post, but that's what she says. Perhaps you can point to a link where she says something else.