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Peterborough by-election, 6 June 2019

Well, I don't wholly disagree. 2 is rather simplistic, and is the fault of other aspects of EU rules (such as the posting of workers directive) rather than 'free movement' itself. It would have been easy to move much of 'the work' to Eastern European states, but that would have had too big an impact at 'home' (ie in Germany and France), which is why comparatively high standards were brought in to hold back EE enterprises.

I agree that there are other factors, like the posted workers directive, that also facilitate the process. But in respect of the principle it’s been held up by some on the left as some sort of progressive statement of intent by the EU and proof that the EU is a beacon of civilised values enabling gap year students to pick fruit in Europe.

It’s nothing of the sort. It’s about the facilitation of cheap labour in service sectors where work cannot be shifted. otherwise the policy would have protections for workers conditions built in - respect for union rates, undercutting protections, right to trade union organisation, regulation of the employers using labour etc etc
 
The worst part of the single market rules aren't the 'four freedoms' at all, really. It's more about it being full of unelected technocrats who run the system to benefit the 'big countries' (mainly Germany & France) and capital therein, and therefore impose a system of rules that maintains those countries' dominance, particularly via the Eurogroup elite and the operation of the euro.

I agree that there are other factors, like the posted workers directive, that also facilitate the process. But in respect of the principle it’s been held up by some on the left as some sort of progressive statement of intent by the EU and proof that the EU is a beacon of civilised values enabling gap year students to pick fruit in Europe.

It’s nothing of the sort. It’s about the facilitation of cheap labour in service sectors where work cannot be shifted. otherwise the policy would have protections for workers conditions built in - respect for union rates, undercutting protections, right to trade union organisation, regulation of the employers using labour etc etc
It's not really. That is A factor, but to say it was the main one is dubious as hell. It does actually have protection for workers built in, including on union rates, altho that can be overcome through the PWD. Freedom of movement was (at first) about allowing relatively wealthy workers to move between countries which were relatively close in terms of wages to move between one another.

And dont slag off fruit-pickers, it wasn't mainly students who had to do those shitty, back-breaking, jobs, it was fucking poor people. Or sometimes other working-class people who thought it might help make a cheap holiday. the scumbags.
 
For once you started of civilly before descending into hyperbole.

Let’s unpick things for you:

1. Yes, well done, the major problem is indeed capital and the troika - IMF, ECB and EU technocrats - who administer the system. How they administer it is the question in point here. They administer it through the single market project. Hence the reason I oppose the single market project. The principles are the practical measures that give effect to the ideology.

2. You’ll need to explain to me how it’s ‘as dubious as hell’ to suggest that the principle of free movement is not a key driver in driving workers to service jobs whilst elsewhere work that can be moved is moved.


3. Finally, in respect of the fruit pickers. Well dur, that’s precisely the point I was making. The industrial scale use of poor people to do those jobs here and elsewhere is a perfect example of the freedom of movement policy in practise rather than theory.
 
We should probably all join the tories en masse and reform them from within too. They're the government after all, anyone who won't do it is probably not living in the real world where you have to get your hands dirty in politics.

If you don't join them we'll end up with the brexit party in charge instead and it will all be the fault of everyone who didn't join the tories.
You know, that’s actually not a bad idea given the size of their apparent membership...
 
From the sound that of it we probably haven't done enough drugs. Andrea Leadsom now. I'd be shocked if I actually gave a fuck
 
For once you started of civilly before descending into hyperbole.
what was hyperbolic? Let's try and both keep things civil, eh, old chap.

Let’s unpick things for you:

1. Yes, well done, the major problem is indeed capital and the troika - IMF, ECB and EU technocrats - who administer the system. How they administer it is the question in point here. They administer it through the single market project. Hence the reason I oppose the single market project. The principles are the practical measures that give effect to the ideology.
Wrong. Just plain wrong. They administer it through the Eurobank and other financial institutions, the 'four freedoms' themselves can be interpreted many ways, as they were before '92 when they were in place, but under different rules. It's those rules that are the problem. The rules prohibiting deficits and state aid etc, the ones that enforce a specifically finance directed system.

2. You’ll need to explain to me how it’s ‘as dubious as hell’ to suggest that the principle of free movement is not a key driver in driving workers to service jobs whilst elsewhere work that can be moved is moved.
I did explain it. If you have evidence of your claim you need to show it. I pointed out that you are wrong about even basic neoliberal EU rules not providing any national worker protection. Pre '92 - when the four freedoms still applied - there was no PWD, and almost all protections were still nationally based and enforced. Workers have always moved around the world according to the needs of capital, an open system actually protects wages, to some extent, by discouraging people working totally offbook, and undercutting agreed rates much more. If you want to look at a specific...

3. Finally, in respect of the fruit pickers. Well dur, that’s precisely the point I was making. The industrial scale use of poor people to do those jobs here and elsewhere is a perfect example of the freedom of movement policy in practise rather than theory.
[/quote]
this is just contradicting yourself. Was it students on jollys or working-class people in need? Fruit picking has always been like this, in an organsied fashion since the seventies (and much probably earlier, I'm just not old enough to be sure), and throughout the entire history of agriculture, there is an itinerant workforce at harvest time. It's not a new thing in any way shape or form, not an invention of the EU, or the EEC.

Put it another way, imagine a socialist europe, democratically run from the bottom up. Wouldn't we have nearly all of those four freedoms there? The sheffield workers coop would freely trade Henderson's with the sicilian gelato confederation, wealthier countries could support poorer ones in supplying services, and even capital, and people could just go where they wanted. All would be under some rule to ensure local development and autonomy, as well as a financial system that isn't based on crushing the poorest and supporting the financial centres.

I agree with you, wholeheartedly, about the EU being unreformable, and the last para being unimplementable within the current body, but in simply blaming 'the four freedoms' i think you are missing the point of what is actually the problem.
 
what was hyperbolic? Let's try and both keep things civil, eh, old chap.


Wrong. Just plain wrong. They administer it through the Eurobank and other financial institutions, the 'four freedoms' themselves can be interpreted many ways, as they were before '92 when they were in place, but under different rules. It's those rules that are the problem. The rules prohibiting deficits and state aid etc, the ones that enforce a specifically finance directed system.


I did explain it. If you have evidence of your claim you need to show it. I pointed out that you are wrong about even basic neoliberal EU rules not providing any national worker protection. Pre '92 - when the four freedoms still applied - there was no PWD, and almost all protections were still nationally based and enforced. Workers have always moved around the world according to the needs of capital, an open system actually protects wages, to some extent, by discouraging people working totally offbook, and undercutting agreed rates much more. If you want to look at a specific...
this is just contradicting yourself. Was it students on jollys or working-class people in need? Fruit picking has always been like this, in an organsied fashion since the seventies (and much probably earlier, I'm just not old enough to be sure), and throughout the entire history of agriculture, there is an itinerant workforce at harvest time. It's not a new thing in any way shape or form, not an invention of the EU, or the EEC.

Put it another way, imagine a socialist europe, democratically run from the bottom up. Wouldn't we have nearly all of those four freedoms there? The sheffield workers coop would freely trade Henderson's with the sicilian gelato confederation, wealthier countries could support poorer ones in supplying services, and even capital, and people could just go where they wanted. All would be under some rule to ensure local development and autonomy, as well as a financial system that isn't based on crushing the poorest and supporting the financial centres.

I agree with you, wholeheartedly, about the EU being unreformable, and the last para being unimplementable within the current body, but in simply blaming 'the four freedoms' i think you are missing the point of what is actually the problem.[/QUOTE]
Useful debate if I may say so-and one that the press as far as I can see has tried to avoid tackling head on:thumbs:
 
this is just contradicting yourself. Was it students on jollys or working-class people in need? Fruit picking has always been like this, in an organsied fashion since the seventies (and much probably earlier, I'm just not old enough to be sure), and throughout the entire history of agriculture, there is an itinerant workforce at harvest time. It's not a new thing in any way shape or form, not an invention of the EU, or the EEC.

Put it another way, imagine a socialist europe, democratically run from the bottom up. Wouldn't we have nearly all of those four freedoms there? The sheffield workers coop would freely trade Henderson's with the sicilian gelato confederation, wealthier countries could support poorer ones in supplying services, and even capital, and people could just go where they wanted. All would be under some rule to ensure local development and autonomy, as well as a financial system that isn't based on crushing the poorest and supporting the financial centres.

I agree with you, wholeheartedly, about the EU being unreformable, and the last para being unimplementable within the current body, but in simply blaming 'the four freedoms' i think you are missing the point of what is actually the problem.



In the "good old days" before holidays were the accepted norm, working class people were lucky to gat a day at the nearest coast or like my parents went hop picking in Kent. That was their holiday
 
Not sure if this will amount to anything, but there's another twist in the story
Peterborough by-election 'malpractice' police inquiry
Police are investigating five allegations of malpractice relating to a by-election won by Labour in Peterborough earlier this month. Lisa Forbes was elected as the city's MP after the former Labour incumbent Fiona Onasanya was forced out after being jailed for lying about speeding.
Cambridgeshire Police said it was looking into allegations including bribery and postal vote issues. Peterborough City Council said it was standard practice to report concerns.
 
Police have been asked to investigate a claim, made on social media, that an individual burned more than 1,000 votes destined for the Brexit party; and that some voters were observed taking photographs of ballot papers, leading to concerns that they were fulfilling some form of contract.
So it's bullshit and bollocks then
 
Reform is obviously dependant on who ends up President of the Commission (they are the only one who set the agenda) On current system, should be Weber (worth noting no one in UK could have voted for EPP). With the avowed effort to freeze out Nationalist parties (who returned largest number of UK MEP's (not that they have a plan for reform, just leave) ALDE hold balance of power and the 'reform' would be the Associate membership of the Spinelli Group's ideas. Admittedly that would be preferable to the fiasco we have got ourselves into. However, no matter how much they spin that as 'listening' they came up with that in 2013 and they weren't psychic about the various crisis of the last 6 years... And it'll be yet another European referendum where the member state was told "are you sure ?" and ridden over rough shod.


Already it reminds me of Animal Farm, with the remainers the 2 legs bad 4 legs good sheep, whilst the justifications for exceptionalism grow the Greeks, well they are lazy, leavers they are just ignorant racists...
 
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