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Peak Oil (was "petroleum geologist explains US war policy")

More news from downunder..
Australia rapped over E Timor oil -
Oxfam is urging Australia to "play fair" with its smaller neighbour.

East Timor is at risk of becoming a failed state, just two years after winning independence, Oxfam has warned.

It claims Australia is hampering East Timor's finances by laying claim to the lion's share of Timor Sea oil fields.

While Australia has been a "generous donor" it has actually reaped 10 times more in revenues from East Timor than it has given since 1999, Oxfam added.

Australia makes £1m ($1.7m) a day from a temporary deal granting access to two thirds of the oil fields, Oxfam said.

But, the charity argued, if a maritime boundary were set up between the two countries according to international law it would deliver "most, if not all" of these resources to East Timor.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3729807.stm

This graphic explains it pretty well:

backgroundmap.gif


More here.
 
G7 pleads for lower oil prices

Finance ministers from the G7 group of wealthy countries have called for lower oil prices at their meeting in New York.

"Low oil prices would benefit the whole world economy," the G7 statement said.

The G7 made clear it wants oil exporters to lift production quotas to cool down prices from their near-record level of more than $40 a barrel.

But the Opec oil producers' cartel has delayed any change in production levels at least until next month.

"We call on all producers to take action to ensure world oil prices return to levels that are consistent with lasting economic prosperity and stability - especially for the poorest nations," said the G7's appeal, which was read out by Gordon Brown, UK Chancellor of the Exchequer.

'Risk to growth'

Overall, the G7 delivered a positive assessment of the world economy, which it said was "strong", with recovery "proceeding rapidly", and its best growth rate in 15 years, of around 4.25% in 2003-2004.

But it said oil prices remain "a risk".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3740475.stm

Is that what they call 'tin-cup diplomacy'?

I don't agree with everything he says, but Matt Simmons (Energy Banker/Analyst) has apparently done his homework WRT Saudi Oil Reserves.

http://www.globalpublicmedia.com/INTERVIEWS/MATT.SIMMONS/

There is a video interview: 'Following the top level US-Saudi oil conference in Washington, DC, on April 27th, Matt Simmons gives frank comments on what the Saudi's are presenting to the world.' It weighs in at >100Mb

Simmons is quoted in a recent altnet article saying that "the entire world assumes Saudi Arabia can carry everyone's energy needs on its back cheaply. If this turns out to not work, there is no Plan B, and the world will face a giant energy crisis."

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=18555
 
There's an interesting piece on The Memory Hole regarding US oil company practices in terms of increasing profit margins and the techniques they use to work out prices of petrol. An interesting read.


How Gas Companies Manipulate Prices

From the Statement of Senator Carl Levin, Chairman, Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations; Hearing on Gas Prices: How Are They Really Set? US Senate, 30 April 2002:

..............

An internal BP document from 1999 reflects similar thinking with respect to the Midwest. The document reflects a discussion amongst senior BP executives of possible strategies to increase refining margins, and it mentions "significant opportunities to influence the crude supply/demand balance." It notes that these "opportunities" can increase Midwestern prices by 1 to 3 cents per gallon." The memo discusses strategies to reduce the supply of gasoline in the Midwest. It lists some possible options, including: shutting down refining capacity, convincing cities to require reformulated gas that is not readily available, exporting product to Canada, lobbying for environmental regulations that would slow down the movement of gasoline in pipelines, shipping products other than gasoline on pipelines that can carry gasoline, and providing incentives to others not to provide gasoline in Chicago.

BP officials told the Subcommittee staff that these ideas were only part of a "brainstorming" session and that none of the options for reducing supply were adopted. We'll go through this document in some detail later this morning. In another document from the Midwest, an internal Marathon document, Marathon even called Hurricane George a "helping hand" to oil producers because it "caused some major refinery closures, threatened off-shore oil production and imports, and generally lent some bullishness to the oil futures market."
 
Oil up again in price

Oil price soars despite Saudi vow

Opec ministers have said they will not be pressured into upping production despite Saudi Arabia opting to go it alone and raise its output. The news came as oil surged more than $1 a barrel to $41.70 in the US on Monday night before easing slightly early on Tuesday. Earlier, Saudi Arabia promised to boost output to 9.1 million barrels a day in an effort to stem record prices.

But traders fear the Saudi boost cannot make up for soaring demand. In trade in New York, US light crude soared by $1.77 to close at $41.70 a barrel - just under 21 year highs hit last week. Meanwhile, in London Brent crude jumped 90 cents to $37.41. Oil prices fell shortly after the Saudi move to raise output by 800,000 barrels a day, but it was a brief respite as new worries quickly set in.

.........Meanwhile, Nigeria has suggested that the cartel may not be able to satisfy surging global demand. Edmund Daukoru, presidential adviser on oil said: "I believe it is not how much we announce we are going to put on the market, it is how much spare capacity the market believes we have." Algeria has also warned that a quota rise would legitimise leakage over official curbs, not lower prices. Energy and mining minister Chakib Khelil said the market had already factored in about three million barrels a day of such leakage. The cartel - which supplies about a third of the world's oil - targets daily output of 23.5 million barrels per day, but members are already pumping out an extra two million barrels a day - the equivalent of 2.5% of global demand. As a result, any Opec increase would largely be met by Saudi Arabia as most other members now have very little spare capacity......

Gary Ross, of New York's PIRA energy consultancy added: "At the end of the day Saudi Arabia is the only country with significant spare capacity and they are not going to be constrained by others with none."
 
'The View from Hubbert's Peak'

Angry truckers celebrated this May Day by blocking freeways in Los Angeles and container terminals in Oakland and Stockton. With diesel fuel prices in California soaring to record levels in recent weeks, the earnings of independent container-haulers have dropped below the poverty line. Lacking the power of big trucking companies to pass rising fuel costs onto customers, the port drivers -- many of them immigrants from Mexico -- have had little choice but to share some of their pain with the public.

In one action, abandoned big rigs blocked the morning commute just south of downtown Los Angeles on Interstate 5, making tens of thousands of motorists temporary hostages of the fuel crisis. As one exasperated commuter complained to a radio station, "This is really the end of the world." Perhaps it is. As Venezuela's energy minister Rafael Ramirez told the Financial Times on May 24, "The history of cheap oil may have ended."

..........

The oilmen in the White House, of course, have the best view of the lush terrain on the far side of Hubbert's peak. No wonder, then, that a map of the 'war against terrorism' corresponds with such uncanny accuracy to the geography of oil fields and proposed pipelines. From Kazakhstan to Ecuador, American combat boots are sticky with oil.

To cite two recent, almost random examples: First, the Malaysian foreign minister warned in late May that Washington was exaggerating the threat of terrorist piracy in the Straits of Malacca in order to justify the deployment of forces there -- right at the chokepoint of East Asia's oil supply. Second, T. Christian Miller, reporting in the Los Angeles Times, revealed that U.S. Special Forces, as well as the CIA and private American security contractors, are integrally involved in an ongoing reign of terror in Columbia's Arauca province. The aim of "Operation Red Moon" is to annihilate the leftwing ELN guerrillas threatening the oilfields and pipelines operated by LA-based Occidental Petroleum. The result, Miller reports, has been a slow-motion massacre.
 
Good article I just read in Harpers....

The oil we eat

Basically backing some of the points that Bernie has made over and over - the way that our agricultural systems are so dependent on oil. A few quotes:

"If you follow the energy, eventually you will end up in a field somewhere. Humans engage in a dizzying array of artifice and industry. Nonetheless, more than two thirds of humanity's cut of primary productivity results from agriculture, two thirds of which in turn consists of three plants: rice, wheat, and corn. In the 10,000 years since humans domesticated these grains, their status has remained undiminished, most likely because they are able to store solar energy in uniquely dense, transportable bundles of carbohydrates. They are to the plant world what a barrel of refined oil is to the hydrocarbon world. Indeed, aside from hydrocarbons they are the most concentrated form of true wealth--sun energy--to be found on the planet."

".... now when the vault is empty we fill it again with new energy in the form of oil-rich fertilizers. Oil is annual primary productivity stored as hydrocarbons, a trust fund of sorts, built up over many thousands of years. On average, it takes 5.5 gallons of fossil energy to restore a year's worth of lost fertility to an acre of eroded land--in 1997 we burned through more than 400 years' worth of ancient fossilized productivity, most of it from someplace else."

"The common assumption these days is that we muster our weapons to secure oil, not food. There's a little joke in this. Ever since we ran out of arable land, food is oil. Every single calorie we eat is backed by at least a calorie of oil, more like ten. In 1940 the average farm in the United States produced 2.3 calories of food energy for every calorie of fossil energy it used. By 1974 (the last year in which anyone looked closely at this issue), that ratio was 1:1. And this understates the problem, because at the same time that there is more oil in our food there is less oil in our oil. A couple of generations ago we spent a lot less energy drilling, pumping, and distributing than we do now. In the 1940s we got about 100 barrels of oil back for every barrel of oil we spent getting it. Today each barrel invested in the process returns only ten, a calculation that no doubt fails to include the fuel burned by the Hummers and Blackhawks we use to maintain access to the oil in Iraq.

David Pimentel, an expert on food and energy at Cornell University, has estimated that if all of the world are the way the United States eats, humanity would exhaust all known global fossil-fuel reserves in just over seven years. Pimentel has his detractors. Some have accused him of being off on other calculations by as much as 30 percent. Fine. Make it ten years."


....Fucking fantastic thread btw....
 
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_782855,00020008.htm

EU says switch oil from dollar to currency basket
Reuters
Brussels, May 26

World oil trade should be switched to a basket of currencies, including the euro, rather than be priced in dollars only, the European Commission said on Wednesday.
"If the oil price should be related to a value it should be a consequence of a basket of currencies involving the main oil consumption (nations)," Energy Commissioner Loyola de Palacio told reporters after a news conference.

"This should give the real picture of the impact of the oil prices."

A spokesman for Palacio said a currency basket for oil trade, all now dollar-denominated, would help provide stability on world oil markets.

Palacio told the news conference that speculation, not a real shortage on oil on the market, was fuelling high prices. She called on OPEC to increase its output, saying the oil producers' credibility was at stake.

"What we have here is a speculative bubble... There is no real shortage on the markets. That is the reality," Palacio said.

She also said European Union member states had enough oil reserves to cope with more than the mandatory requirement of 90 days of demand.

"Our impression is that...they have additional capacity stored in addition to what is required under current legislation, the 90 days," Palacio said.

"In principle there are sufficient stocks."
 
In today's Irish News (main Northern Irish nationalist/catholic daily) there's a piece about truckers in the Republic warning of economic crisis if fuel prices keep rising.
 
Yeah, Ill agree with Totaladdict, by far and away the finest thread on any of Urban75, or anywhere else on the t'internet.

If someone wants to know about oil and its effects, just point them to this thread. Top banana.
 
totaladdict said:
Good article I just read in Harpers....

The oil we eat

The most relevan quotes from the article:

The common assumption these days is that we muster our weapons to secure oil, not food. There's a little joke in this. Ever since we ran out of arable land, food is oil. Every single calorie we eat is backed by at least a calorie of oil, more like ten. In 1940 the average farm in the United States produced 2.3 calories of food energy for every calorie of fossil energy it used. By 1974 (the last year in which anyone looked closely at this issue), that ratio was 1:1. And this understates the problem, because at the same time that there is more oil in our food there is less oil in our oil. A couple of generations ago we spent a lot less energy drilling, pumping, and distributing than we do now. In the 1940s we got about 100 barrels of oil back for every barrel of oil we spent getting it. Today each barrel invested in the process returns only ten, a calculation that no doubt fails to include the fuel burned by the Hummers and Blackhawks we use to maintain access to the oil in Iraq.

There is another energy matter to consider here, though. The grinding, milling, wetting, drying, and baking of a breakfast cereal requires about four calories of energy for every calorie of food energy it produces. A two-pound bag of breakfast cereal burns the energy of a half-gallon of gasoline in its making. All together the food-processing industry in the United States uses about ten calories of fossil-fuel energy for every calorie of food energy it produces.

This explains why the energy expert David Pimentel is so worried that the rest of the world will adopt America's methods. He should be, because the rest of the world is. Mexico now feeds 45 percent of its grain to livestock, up from 5 percent in 1960. Egypt went from 3 percent to 31 percent in the same period, and China, with a sixth of the world's population, has gone from 8 percent to 26 percent. All of these places have poor people who could use the grain, but they can't afford it.

Economists keep saying that we use less and less energy to produce more and more GDP, however from the quotes we could find that we use more and more energy to produce less and less food.

The GDP is a fictiv number, the food is very real.
 
Time to start looking at a government propoaganda film that was fed to its citizens in 1975 energy crisis:

http://www.archive.org/movies/movies-details-db.php?collection=prelinger&collectionid=16796a

http://www.archive.org/movies/movies-details-db.php?collection=prelinger&collectionid=16796b

Oh what fun, if they had followed thir own advise back then we wouldnt be in this situation now.

Ok place yer bets, there was the hostage thing in Saudi yesterday and a Brit dragged through streets tied to back of car, so what will the oil price go to when the markets reopen?

I'll start the bidding at $45 ;)

Oh this reminds me of something; If there is an oil crisis caused by the current politics in the region, and this causes a recession etc, wont this delay the final forever peak-oil crisis by a few years? Or at the very least, would such a crisis allow the oil price to go up and up in semi-manageable jumps rather than the one single huge price jump which would happen when it becomes clear that supply/demand is screwed?
 
Meanwhile in Russia, is the plan to renationalise Yukos Oil by forcing them into bankrupcy?

"The oil company Yukos has warned that the government's legal onslaught, including a $3.4 billion tax bill, could drive it into bankruptcy this year -- setting the stage for the state to seize control over one of Russia's most successful businesses."

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/05/28/russia.yukos.ap/index.html

The above article is oil stupid though, Yukos is just seen as any other business.
 
elbows said:
<snip> Oh this reminds me of something; If there is an oil crisis caused by the current politics in the region, and this causes a recession etc, wont this delay the final forever peak-oil crisis by a few years? Or at the very least, would such a crisis allow the oil price to go up and up in semi-manageable jumps rather than the one single huge price jump which would happen when it becomes clear that supply/demand is screwed?
It would slow the 'burn rate' but that's only useful if it allows policy changes to occur. For example, coherent international efforts to limit population, soil erosion etc and to invest our remaining oil energy in a transition to sustainability. The transition gets harder the longer we leave it.
 
Right, so... population came up in another thread and it was suggested we discuss it here - doesn't seem to have happened, but I'll make a start:

So, "over-population" seems to recieve a fair bit of mainstream media attention, and has been the subject of numerous books. The reason for this is, I think, largely because it allows our governments and corporate leaders to say "Oh, it's not our fault, we don't need to change the way capitalism rapes the earth, it's all the fault of ****** [insert name of dark people from far away places here]". If it wasn't for poverty, and a lack of security, healthcare and education, then birthrates wouldn't be as high as they are in certain places (India, for example). By blaming excessive population growth, instead of the social and economic structures that foster it, you shift analysis from the cause to the effect. Which doesn't seem, to me, to be particularly helpful.

It might be helpful here to look at one of the most famous proponents of the "over-population" phenomenon, Paul Erlich. "The Population Bomb" is not a very good book. Ehrlich engaged in some reckless prophesying based on erroneous neo-Malthusian presumptions. There are numerous available examples. For one, writing in 1968 Ehrlich claimed that "the next nine years will probably tell the story" (p.17) because "the undeveloped world is rapidly running out of food. And famine, of course, could be one way to reach a death-rate solution to the population problem. In fact, the battle to feed humanity is already lost; in the sense that we will not be able to prevent famines in the next decade or so." (p.29) Populations outstripping food supplies on the scale that Ehrlich envisioned never materialized. And Amartya Sen has persuasively shown that historically modern famines are typically due to the inaction of states or inept public policies and not due to food shortages.

Over time Ehrlich's prophesying has grown more careful and more sophisticated, although not less neo-Malthusian and not less apocalyptic. The new measured approach of the Ehrlichs easily falls under the rubric of Amartya Sen's description of the new population prophets: "the new prophets have learned not to attach specific dates to the crises they foresee, and past failures do not seem to have reduced the popular appetite for this creative genre."

Moreover, the Ehrlichs' representation of demographic transition theories (which include the notion that fertility rates flatten at the mature stages of industrial development) is impoverished. The demographic transition theory that he presents is actually the evolutionary capitalist's demographic transition theory (a.k.a modernization theories), they hold that demographic transition is an automatic process, bound to happen everywhere. Whereas for a long time now significant elements of the left have been arguing that the capitalist world-economy is STRUCTURED- on unequal exchange, debt slavery, and exploitation of labour and the environment, and that there is no automatic or evolutionary trajectory towards industrial maturity for everyone. I think the operative (yet not wholly definitive) slogan is "the development of underdevelopment." It's not that we have seen no development at all, but rather we have seen relationships of dependence, impeded development and highly selective development, as each country and region takes its place in the international division of labour and power. We can't afford to wait for automatic development, conscious human agency is required. We have to "make it happen" by organising for social change.

Bookchin's description of "The Population Bomb" as indicative of "amoral" and "one-dimensional" thinking is on target, although these statements are less true of the Ehrlichs' recent works. (See Bookchin's "The Population Myth: II" )

Once again there are many available examples. Ehrlich discusses "What Needs To Be Done" in chapter 4. We'll need to advertise and establish drastic policies and we'll need to "adopt some very tough foreign policy positions relative to population control", but in order to be legitimate, first we will need to get our house (the U.S.) in order. And how is that to be achieved? The first solution that Ehrlich discusses is the addition of temporary sterilants to the water and/or food supply! Sadly, for Ehrlich, this option isn't even open to us because of "the criminal inadequacy of biomedical research in this area." (p.123) A few sentences later Ehrlich equivocates: "I suspect you'll agree with me that society would probably dissolve before sterilants were added to the water supply by the government...Some other way will have to be found." Yet one page later leaves one with little doubt as to where Ehrlich's heart lies. He proposes the establishment of a federal Department of Population and Environment "with the power to take whatever steps are necessary to establish a reasonable population size" which would "promote intensive investigation of new techniques of birth control, possibly leading to the development of mass sterilizing agents such as were discussed above." (p124-25)

The fertility rate solutions of "The Population Bomb" are overwhelmingly biased towards advocacy of coercive techniques. Socio-economic development hardly appears in the picture; female empowerment not at all. Over time the Ehrlichs have jettisoned consideration of regressive and coercive techniques and come to favour socio-economic development, female empowerment, and "humane" family planning. To their credit the Ehrlichs have listened to their more constructive critics and colleagues and in terms of solutions have changed their tune to a predominantly "humane" and "collaborative" advocacy.

The economic illiteracy of "Population Bomb" is also glaringly obvious. While there are a scant handful of perfunctory calls to fundamentally change the economic system, the role that economic and political institutions have in generating the environmental crisis is not analyzed. A section dealing with environmental deterioration caused by pollution and synthetic pesticides concludes by simplistically naming them "symptoms of the Earth's disease of overpopulation." (p.115) In this case, the following quote from John Bellamy Foster seems apropos:

"the world's natural and physical scientists, who have done so much to alert us to the dangers facing humanity and the planet as we know it are ill-equipped to understand the roots of the problem (or even the enormity of the threat looming before us), since they are generally unable to account for the social problems that underlie this ecological crisis, which demand explanations that go beyond such factors as biology, demography and technology—to address historical forms of production, and particularly capitalism." (John Bellamy Foster- The Scale of Our Ecological Crisis, Monthly Review)

So, I've waffled for way too long already, but from all that one can start to understand why and how "population" has been so handy for defenders of the (political and economic) status quo.

That said, I understand that there ARE upper limits on the numbers of people who can be sustained, both nationally and globally. Finding out those limits is obviously not a simple task though. As Bookchin states in Death of a Small Planet ""We have yet to determine how many people the planet can sustain without complete ecological disruption. The data are far from conclusive, but they are surely highly biased-generally along economic, racial, and social lines. Demography is far from a science, but it is a notorious political weapon whose abuse has disastrously claimed the lives of millions over the course of the century." Robin Hahnel, Professor of Ecological Economics at American University has also said (about carry capacity and his reasons for not including it in Participatory Economics) that it was potentially a good concept but that currently they are notoriously difficult and controversial calculations. So, we're unlikely to be able to come to any specific conclusions in this area... That doesn't mean 'ignore it' just that we should be aware of what assumptions we're making, and whose interests are served.

I'm sure I should have said more, but for the moment I imagine that post was way too long for most people to bother reading anyway so I'll stop. A few links though, just in case anyone is interested in further reading:

"Population - Delusion and Reality" Amartya Sen - Good artricle outlining some of the main issues, from a nobel prize winning economist.

"Population" Mike Albert - includes instructive analysis of some of the reactionary forms which population advocacy has taken.

"Global Ecology and the Common Good" John Bellamy Foster - which explains how the roots of overconsumption really lie in the production system - rather than any innate human needs - what Foster calls the "Treadmills of Production." This link is well worth reading.

"Who Funds Anne Erlich" Bernardo Issel - For some dirt on the Erlichs.
 
Just to say - I s'pose specifically directed to Bernie - I don't necessarily disagree with the calculations that have been put forward so far in this thread (and others). It's obviously necessary to be able to look at what the optimum conditions for sustainability are, and one of those conditions is obviously the number of people who can be fed using sustainable agricultural methods!

In that sense, David Pimentels calculations are essential to understanding why population is such an important issue... just saying that we need to be aware of what he means exactly by "a European standard of living for everyone and sustainable use of natural resources." - What I mean is, what does "a European standard of living" imply with regard to production and distribution of consumable goods?
 
Originally Posted by TeeJay (over on the Kilroy-Silk thread on UKP, which we were in danger of derailing)
Most people are predicting the global population stabilising at less than 11 billion which will require switches in technology and a more fair distribution of consumption. I haven't seen a single credible analysis that predicts a population reduction, as either likely or even that important in dealing with the main issues (although more to reduce the current growth would probably help things somewhat).<snip>
Again, I'd be interested in some references so I can see who you mean by 'most people'

I am happy to provide sources for what I'm saying. e.g. David Pimentel's: 'Food, Energy & Society' Colorado University Press, 1996 (2nd edition) and I've already linked a couple of his papers online. He's an ecology prof at Cornell, so I would think he's reasonably credible (unless you work for the oil or agribiz industry, in which case he's one of pbman's 'alarmests').

You may choose to disagree with his assumptions, but he's pretty clear about what those assumptions are and where he gets them from. I'm hoping that you will choose to share your assumptions with us in turn, so that we can see where your conclusions are coming from.

Here's some more Pimentel (warning, pdf file)

And here's a collection of some more of his stuff on population. link There are links to the papers of various other credible academics on that site, which may vary some assumptions, but tend to support this case. You will also note that Prof Pimentel's stuff is peer-reviewed and appears in the academic press.

Here are the assumptions that lead to the 2 billion figure I mentioned above. The quotes are taken from 'Will Limits of the Earth's Resources Control Human Population' at the last link above.

Our suggested 2 billion population carrying capacity for the Earth is based on a European standard of living for everyone and sustainable use of natural resources. For land resources, we suggest 0.5 ha of cropland per capita with an intense agricultural production system (~8 million kcal/ha) and diverse plant and animal diet for the people. The 0.5 ha of cropland per capita is the level that existed in 1960. Since that time nearly one-third of the world's arable land has been lost due to urbanization, highways, soil erosion, salinization, and water-logging of the soil (WRI, 1994; Pimentel et al., 1998a).

In addition, approximately 1.5 ha of land would be required per capita for a renewable energy system (discussed earlier, p. 15). At the same time, the goal would be approximately 1 ha each for forest and pasture production per capita. Of course, it would also be essential to stop all current land degradation associated with soil erosion and other factors (Pimentel et al., 1995). Technologies are currently available for soil conservation in agricultural and forest production; they only need to be implemented (Troeh and Thompson, 1993).
and
The adjustment of the world population from 6 billion to 2 billion could be made over approximately a century if the majority of the people of the world agree that protecting human health and welfare is vital, and all are willing to work to provide a stable quality of life for ourselves and our children. Although a rapid reduction in population numbers to 2 billion humans could cause social, economic, and political problems, continued rapid growth to 10 or 12 billion people will result in an even dire situation with potentially greater problems. In addition to worldwide catastrophic health and environmental problems, political and economic tensions are likely to increase as fossil fuel production starts to decline after about the year 2010.

So in summary, with these assumptions it is feasible that we could have a population of around 10 billion by 2050 as you suggest TeeJay, but it is not sustainable in the absence of an effective substitue for oil, and is therefore liable to be the peak of a bacteria-type growth curve if we are unfortunate enough to let that happen.

The reason for this is that we presently use large amounts of oil energy to subsidise our food systems, and the availability of oil is already near peak.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
Here's some more Pimentel (warning, pdf file)
Address here: http://www.ku.edu/~hazards/foodpop.pdf
And here's a collection of some more of his stuff on population. link There are links to the papers of various other credible academics on that site, which may vary some assumptions, but tend to support this case. You will also note that Prof Pimentel's stuff is peer-reviewed and appears in the academic press.
Address here: http://www.mnforsustain.org/author_pimentel_david.htm

(copy and paste lost your links by the looks of it)
 
totaladdict said:
Just to say - I s'pose specifically directed to Bernie - I don't necessarily disagree with the calculations that have been put forward so far in this thread (and others). It's obviously necessary to be able to look at what the optimum conditions for sustainability are, and one of those conditions is obviously the number of people who can be fed using sustainable agricultural methods!

In that sense, David Pimentels calculations are essential to understanding why population is such an important issue... just saying that we need to be aware of what he means exactly by "a European standard of living for everyone and sustainable use of natural resources." - What I mean is, what does "a European standard of living" imply with regard to production and distribution of consumable goods?
My understanding is that what he means by this is something like the following.

1) European per/capita levels of energy consumption.
2) European per/capital food consumption.
3) Some degree of global trading (which is where some of that energy goes)

So it's kind of a 'business as usual, only sustainable' set of assumptions. Elsewhere in this thread I've suggested some rather more optimistic assumptions based on e.g. eco-villages and so on, that would allow for a larger carrying capacity, but would imply a very different way of life for all.

The fundamental constraint is the energy/agriculture/growth relationship though. Total resource use = individual resource use x population right?

If you reduce per capita resource use, you can sustain a larger population and if you reduce population, you can sustain a larger per capita resource use. That would be fine if we were talking about a system that's already stable, but the one we've got supplements the free resource flow of solar energy with a finite resource stock of fossil energy. This allows unsustainable growth to occur in both population and per-capita resource use. The problem, and the core subject of this thread, is that those finite stocks of fossil fuels are peaking and both per capita use and population are growing.

Now we can come up with different sets of more or less plausible assumptions for the constraints, but the basic pattern remains the same. There is some point at which there isn't enough oil, then something has to give somewhere.
 
totaladdict,

Looking at your longer post above, I think there are some meaty issues there.

I'm going through your links and getting my head around your argument now, but in the meantime, I'd want to draw attention to Harry Cleaver's papers on 'Green Revolution', 'Food, Famine and Crisis', 'Technology as a Weapon' and so on.

You may already be familar with them I'd guess?

He makes some very interesting arguments that the oil-input agricultural technologies which have enabled us to get into the present situation were to a large extent introduced for political reasons. As imperialist/capitalist control vectors. It's a view I have a great deal of sympathy with, and hence, your arguments above are ones I can relate to. I've been hoping someone would show up on this thread eventually willing to talk about this stuff, because it's always seemed to me to be a big gap.
 
OK, I've been through your links.

Can you see any evidence in the Sen or Albert papers that they've understood the role of oil-energy inputs in food production? I can't.

Within certain limits, economics works. Beyond those limits, ecology takes over. Up to a point market forces can make previously uneconomic resources available. Past a point they can't, because the resources simply aren't there. People who only look at economic data and economic arguments won't see it until it happens. To an economist, oil is just another commodity apparently.

That's not to say that they haven't got people like Erlich well sussed, but that's not where I'm coming from on this issue, as I hope is already obvious.

The Foster and Bookchin articles seemed much more on the ball to me.

As Bookchin says:
What environmentalists must emphasize is that the global ecological crisis is systemic not simply the product of random mishaps.
and given the extreme likelihood of further technical fixes (GMO's to give one example) to a structural problem being proposed, here's something from Cleaver's 'Technology as a Political Weapon'
As workers we are faced with the immediate pressing need to evaluate how any given technological or scientific development may be used against us as part of capitalist restructuring. Simultaneously we must respond to the question of how we can undermine or use such development to our own advantage. To see that it has been our own struggles for more income and less work that precipitated the crisis of existing structure of social production is to recognize the possibility of sabotaging current attempts at changing those structures. To attack scientific and technological developments aimed at perpetuating the link between the production of social wealth and work, to attack these attempts to continue to reduce life to work, is to assert the radical distinction between technological change and technological progress from the point of view of workers. Progress for us can only be understood as movement that abolishes business' control over life in general and over science and technology in particular. What we have to destroy is a capitalist science and technology devoted to the endless structuring and unification of life around work. What our struggles must continue to develop is a new science and new technologies, technologies geared to abolishing work and maximizing time and resources available for the fullest development of all individuals within an increasingly diverse and variegated society.

In order to develop a self-correcting and sustainable way of life (for example to optimise population and energy use), and one that is stable under the transformations we're likely to experience over the course of the decline of oil, I would argue that structural change is vitally necessary. I believe that the necessary structural change must encompass optimal resource use. For reasons that are argued in Tainter's Complexity, Problem Solving and Sustainable Societies I believe that such change probably has to be founded in human-scale systems and not systems operated on the scale of transnational capitalism or global markets.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
OK, I've been through your links.

Can you see any evidence in the Sen or Albert papers that they've understood the role of oil-energy inputs in food production? I can't.
Neither can I.

I posted them to explain further the "over-population" thing I was getting at (how it's used by elites to shift blame away from the system), though they aren't especially germane to the thread. I completely understand your point... and yes, it is obvious that you aren't coming from there on this issue. (Just wanted to to nip it in the bud before it started if you know what I mean.)

(Still reading up on the Cleaver stuff btw - unfortuantely I can't see that I'm gonna disagree with you, so am not going to be especially helpful in expanding the topic...)
 
Bernie, you beat me to it, but the answer (to totaladdict) as to why the predictions of the neo-malthusians of the sixties didn't come to pass is precisely the Green Revolution, which industrialized agriculture and increased yields world-wide. As with Industrialization in general, it is highly oil-dependent.

There are optimistic arguments that economics will drive technology to an as yet unseen solution, postponing the debacle forecast by post-peak pessimists much as the Green Revolution, unseen by the neo-malthusians, postponed previously predicted debacles. Then there are the pessimists who see our current trajectory in terms of overshoot, the bacterial-blossom-in-the-petri-dish phenomenon. (And what happens when the food in the petri-dish is exhausted? -- the bacteria eat eachother!)

From a good book covering the issues on this thread:

If we simply permit the optimistic and pessimistic arguments to cancel eachother out, at the end of the day we are still left with something like two billion as an educated guess for planet Earth's sustainable, long-term, post-petroleum carrying capacity for humans. This poses a serious problem, since there are currently over six billion of us and our numbers are still growing. If the carrying-capacity estimate is close to being accurate, then the difference between it and the current population size represents the number by which human numbers will likely be reduced between now and the time when oil and natural gas runs out. If that reduction does not take place through voluntary programs of birth control, then it will probably come about as a result of famines, plagues, and wars -- the traditional means by which human populations have been culled when they temporarily surpassed the carrying capcity of their environments.

--source: Richard Heinberg, The Party's Over: Oil, War and the Fate of Industrial Societies, 2003, p 179. Sorry, text not available on-line.
Tainter (Bernie mentions above) views society as an energy-processing system that increases energy capture (and thus sustains population growth) by re-arranging itself toward increasing complexity. The problem in the end is this investment in complexity is subject to the law of diminishing returns: Eventually the dying social structure collapses in on itself when the prole is forced to invest increasing value in the maintenance of complex institutional structures that yield no obvious benefit except to elites at the top (yes, I'm stretching Tainter). Then the society stalls, erodes from within, dissipates -- along with it the successful energy-processing system that enabled the population to bloom.

I think we in the Industrialized West are in one of those "stalls" now. It is complicated still further because, as a result of energy draw-down (oil), it's apparant that the return on energy invested will decline rapidly in coming decades. So already the USG engages in massive propaganda campaigns (and possibly worse) to manufacture consent for wars that will enable control over those diminishing energy flows. We've already resorted to an energy "takeover" strategy (Iraq and Afghanistan), the first and most primitive strategy to gain and sustain a population-enabling energy subsidy (see Heinberg -- the other strategies include tool-use, specialization, scope-enlargement, and draw-down).

The overwhelming problem with this, I think, is that the advantaged, those who hugely profit from current arrangements, are not about to relinquish their priviledged status without first exercising every means possible to retain it. That includes exercising their oil-driven armies while the spigot is still open wide. As Hunter S Thompson says somewhere, Big Dark Coming.

I leave you with these words from George Kennan, the father of post-WWII(US) foriegn policy (this from PPS 23, 1948):

The US has about 50% of the world’s wealth but only 6.3% of its population. In this situation we cannot fail to be the object of envy and resentment. Our real task in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which will permit us to maintain this position of disparity without positive detriment to our national security. To do so, we will have to dispense with all sentimentality and day-dreaming, and our attention will have to be concentrated everywhere on our immediate national objectives.

We need not deceive ourselves that we can afford the luxury of altruism and world benefaction. We should cease talks about such vague and unreal objectives as human rights and raising of living standards and democratization. The day is not far off when we are going to have to deal in straight power concepts. The less we are then hampered by idealistic slogans, the better.


...ring any bells?
 
davekriss said:
Bernie, you beat me to it, but the answer (to totaladdict) as to why the predictions of the neo-malthusians of the sixties didn't come to pass is precisely the Green Revolution, which industrialized agriculture and increased yields world-wide. As with Industrialization in general, it is highly oil-dependent.
I don't disagree with that (which you seem to be implying that I would). The Cleaver article (which bernie linked to above) is well worth a read btw...

Your quote from the Heinberg book actually illustrates one of the points that I was trying to make though - "If that reduction does not take place through voluntary programs of birth control, then it will probably come about as a result of famines, plagues, and wars -- the traditional means by which human populations have been culled when they temporarily surpassed the carrying capcity of their environments." - By making no mention of the possibility of structural change he plays into the hands of defenders of the political status quo. Obviously I'm not saying that that's what he does (I know from your posts that you wouldn't support THAT!), but that he provides ammunition to those who do, and underplays the potential significance of structural change.

Also, "voluntary birth control" ignores the causes of population growth... which are often political oppression (see the Gaza Strip), and insecurity caused by poverty, lack of healthcare and education. It also underplays the role of religious constraints (Catholicism) and gender inequality.
 
totaladdict said:
Your quote from the Heinberg book actually illustrates one of the points ... By making no mention of the possibility of structural change he plays into the hands of defenders of the political status quo.
Thanks for pointing out the weakness of the quote, as left as it is it paints the wrong picture of Heinberg's point of view. In the last chapter of the book, "Managing the Collapse", Heinberg outlines strategies at the personal, family, community, state, nation, and global levels. He argues for anything but the status quo! He writes,

Taken together, these recommendations imply a nearly complete redesign of the human project. They describe a fundamental change of direction -- from the larger, faster, and more centralized to the smaller, slower, and more locally based; from competition to cooperation; and from boundless growth to self-limitation. (ibid, p 237)​
Rather than try and pick out quotes from his fine book, here's a link from about the time the book was published: The Petroleum Plateau

And, while I'm there, here are links to 3 articles. Though not directly related to the current thread, I found them very good:
Götterdämmerung (March 2004)
Remember When We Had Elections? (October 2002)
BEHOLD CAESAR (October 2002)
 
totaladdict said:
I don't disagree with that (which you seem to be implying that I would). The Cleaver article (which bernie linked to above) is well worth a read btw...

Your quote from the Heinberg book actually illustrates one of the points that I was trying to make though - "If that reduction does not take place through voluntary programs of birth control, then it will probably come about as a result of famines, plagues, and wars -- the traditional means by which human populations have been culled when they temporarily surpassed the carrying capcity of their environments." - By making no mention of the possibility of structural change he plays into the hands of defenders of the political status quo. <snip>
I think this is a valuable point, and I'm grateful to you for making it clear over the course of your last few posts. One of the reasons I thought it was connected with the arguments Cleaver is making about the political character of the Green Revolution (the use of energy intensive technologies to boost production in agriculture) apart from the obvious connection with oil-input agriculture in this context, is that he has a lot of interesting stuff to say about the character of change and transformation.

Clearly, transformation is on the agenda in some form, given the role of oil energy inputs and the increasingly apparent depletion of hydrocarbons. As long as that change is conceived from within the world-view of the present global capitalist structure, the tendency is to react to the apparent threat by proposing various point solutions affecting some relevant variable like resource use or resource availability: birth control, hydrogen fuel cells, GMOs etc.

The Pimentel stuff I keep quoting (1-2 billion sustainable with our present standard of living, about 500 million with a US standard of living), is a kind of reductio ad absurdum of this point of view, because it strongly suggests that with 'business as usual only sustainable' assumptions, we have an enormous problem on our hands, given that we have 6 billion and rising, and oil peaking.

The stronger the threat perception becomes, the more likely it is that these point solutions will take on the character of extreme measures, to be justified by exceptional circumstances: forcible sterilisation, resource wars and even totalitarian laws to control any resulting instability in the overall system etc.

What Cleaver points out rather luminously though, is that periods of change are also opportunites for forms of resistance to arise which favour egalitarian values over capitalist ones. Or to put it into the language of evolutionary biology. Alternative Evolutionarily Stable Strategies can become viable in a period of signficant environmental change and previously dominant strategies can become less viable.

The clever trick in my view is to understand what new ESS's favouring egalitarian values might look like and at least prototype them before the global metasystem is forced to find ways to adapt to radically reduced throughputs of hydrocarbon energy. It's pretty likely that the currently successful strategies known collectively as global capitalism will try to adapt through: resource wars, replacing oil energy with labour energy, by defending enclaves of resource hogs using technological force, by expropriation of existing social wealth and by promoting increasingly complex technical solutions in a 'business as usual' context that will provide diminishing returns (e.g. non-conventional oil, GMOs, ill-conceived alternative fuels like uranium, plutonium, corn or soya alcohol etc.)

Any potentially viable alternatives would need be able to adapt effectively to lower energy throughput, but must also be able to survive the potentially savagely unpleasant adaptive strategies which are now being prototyped by e.g. the neo-cons and which seem likely to absorb large quantities of the remaining hydrocarbon energy during the period of transition (to power Blackhawks and Humvees etc)

Now I should be clear that I'm sort of perverting the language of regular evolutionary biology a bit here. What I should really be using is the rather more abstruse terminology of metasystem transition theory (pdf)

Picking up from Tainter's thesis that the upper layers of social metasystem complexity (e.g global capitalist systems) run into diminishing returns and are prone to collapsing back to lower complexity levels, I'm suggesting that hydrocarbon depletion is likely to precipitate such collapses, but not without a lot of rather nasty adaptation.

However, it seems very possible to me that systems which are stable in the necessary ways (resource use etc) at lower complexity levels, and more specifically, ones which might be considered prefereable by your average egalitarian, might be quite resilient under such transformations. This does not necessarily imply a return to primitive subsistence farming as some have suggested, but due to the energy costs of maintaining the global capitalist system, probably does imply significant decentralisation of some form.

It's also pretty likely that to be successful, such alternative structures would need to absorb resources, especially energy as soon as possible, while it's still relatively available. To pick an obvious example, PV solar panels are a lot easier to manufacture now than they would be when energy is relatively much more expensive. In general, the captial costs of alternatives are likely to rise along with the capital costs of everything else over the coming years.
 
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