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Pat Finucane 'Apology'

Pat-Finucane--1024x682.jpg

Pat Finucane, 1949-1989 - RIP
 
Right, well the formatting looked funny on my post in the other thread so at least it gives me a chance to sort that out...

"Overarching state conspiracy" - what does that mean? Or more specifically, what does Cameron mean by that?

They seem to be exonerating [who?] from this episode because ministers didn't know about/order this specific act...but that's not the same as knowing about/allowing these kinds of acts
 
DotCommunist said:
so its basically sorry but nothing will be done to identify living people who were involved in this and hold them to justice.

no wonder the family are calling whitewash
Click to expand...

I thought the BBC done good work to identify the British army unit and its commander who were in charge of intelligence at the time the murder happened. Isn't it more a case of the police being willing to investigate and the political will not existing.

I can't say I know the details of the Dublin / monaghan bombings very well but the Irish government probably have enough evidence of British state collusion to at least investigate or ask the British police to do so, but similarly they don't seem interested in doing so.
 
CyberRose said:
Right, well the formatting looked funny on my post in the other thread so at least it gives me a chance to sort that out...

"Overarching state conspiracy" - what does that mean? Or more specifically, what does Cameron mean by that?

They seem to be exonerating [who?] from this episode because ministers didn't know about/order this specific act...but that's not the same as knowing about/allowing these kinds of acts
Click to expand...


"Overarching state conspiracy" appears to point to elements within the Tory Party, the British Army and the RUC that favoured a 'gloves off' approach to the war against republicans and anyone deemed to be 'on their side'.
 
Probably the most disturbing part of this case for ordinary english people is the way this case confirms the worst conspiracy theories of republicans as fact.

From Douglas Hogg and his 'who will rid me of this troublesome priest' routine in the commons; through RUC men goading loyalists into getting their fingers out; Poshies in Military intel down to knuckledraggers on the ground.

publicly encouraged (and practically commissioned) by a junior Minister on the floor of the House of Commons; repeatedly demanded by the RUC of their loyalist interrogatees... then look who was involved at the sticky end...

The intelligence officer, Brian Nelson who supplied all the info... British Army agent
The Quarternmaster, Billy Stobie, who supplied the weaponry... RUC special branch agent
The shooter, Ken Barrat - RUC Secial Branch agent
 
Any good come out of it? Well yes, in the cold light of day.

Pat Finucane's state-sponsored assassination was supposed to cow a generation into silence and compliance - to create a new generation of Castle-catholics who knew which side their bread was buttered. A life of luxury or a bullet in the head, your choice.

Many I suppose did swallow, but many more did not. What the RUC considered outrageous when Finucane did it was mainstream 10 years later.

So all in all this despicable state-sponsored death squad are responsible in part for the whole new wave of avowedly republican solicitors - Pat Finucane's son Michael at the head of them.
 
The simplistic interpretation of the Finucane affair is that Sgt William McBigot from the RUC Special Branch met up for a pint with his pal Johnny MacMadDog of the UFF and passed a couple of 'names' on to him... Presumably Sgt MacBigot then left saying, "Remember Johnny/Ken/Billy/Jacko/Delete-As-Appropriate, that whatever happens after I give you these names, it's got nothing to do with me!"

It's a convenient cop-out which defies the already disclosed evidence about the level of collusion between British military intelligence, RUC Special Branch and loyalist paramilitaries. The loyalists could not have finessed their operation without input and direction from British Intelligence personnel such as Brian Nelson, who refined their intelligence operation and who selected targets for assassination by the UFF/UDA. Nor could they have carried out such operations without good and effective firepower, which they were supplied with via an MI5 gun-running operation from apartheid South Africa in the late 1980's.

The Brits and RUC Special Branch were not only in the business of recruiting touts in loyalist areas, but also of recruiting reliable assets with a penchant for killing taigs, who would take direction and be supplied with the 'names' of targets and the right gear for the job. Throw-in the amazing way that British Army and RUC units would just magically 'disappear' from the streets of the intended target's home area just before a loyalist death squad moved in and I think you have more than a series of unforeseen coincidences.
 
LiamO said:
Probably the most disturbing part of this case for ordinary english people is the way this case confirms the worst conspiracy theories of republicans as fact.
Click to expand...

It should be, but it comes as little surprise whatsoever. I think anyone who lived in Britain during the troubles (and I was quite young then) will have known, the phrase 'dirty war' came up a lot and seems to stick in my mind, all justified under some sort of vague bollocks that it was 'just how it had to be, they started it kind of crap'. Millions of blind eyes turned.

So on to the whitewash by Cameron, you'd think after he's had to make two extraordinary speeches to the HOC, after the bloody sunday inquiry and Hillsborough report, you'd thought he'd learnt an important lesson regarding sweeping things under the carpet with a heavily managed and not at alll transparent report or inquiry or whatever this was called. It clearly has appeased no one so I fully expect a future British PM having to order a full inquiry and then have to make another grovelling speech to the HOC.

So who is Cameron protecting do we think? Tip of the Iceburg job that if people start looking deeper there is an entire cess pit of shit to uncover or simply protecting his own party who were in government at the time, especially as it was the sainted Maggie at the helm? Bit of both?
 
If you have two sides fighting a "dirty war", both of whom frequently murdered their "rivals" or those who as they saw it, supported their enemies, as well as periodically blowing up anyone else who happened to be in the way, then some pretty nasty stuff is going to happen.

Why demands for endless "enquiries" on one side only?

Giles..
 
Giles said:
If you have two sides fighting a "dirty war", both of whom frequently murdered their "rivals" or those who as they saw it, supported their enemies, as well as periodically blowing up anyone else who happened to be in the way, then some pretty nasty stuff is going to happen.

Why demands for endless "enquiries" on one side only?

Giles..
Click to expand...

Well I can only speak for myself but as British citizen I want to know what the fuck state employees were up to over there. And if it was OK to do it then why is it not OK to own up to it now?

Plus I think familes have a right to know how and why the state acted to kill their husbands, fathers and children etc. I know what the IRA and UDF etc were up to they had to answer in court and in prison (some still are).
 
Giles said:
If you have two sides fighting a "dirty war", both of whom frequently murdered their "rivals" or those who as they saw it, supported their enemies, as well as periodically blowing up anyone else who happened to be in the way, then some pretty nasty stuff is going to happen.

Why demands for endless "enquiries" on one side only?

Giles..
Click to expand...

Giles are you gonna justify the actions of the CIA/British Intellegence next? Cos you know those commies who wanted to bring freedom to their people and those muslims terrorists that they armed, trained and funded they wanted to take our equal way of life and our religious freedoms!

In all seriousness I am no great fan of the Provo's in particular the Shinners, but the british goverment's actions in Ireland have been far worse. Yes the republican struggle has been flawed, but at many times out of desperation against the brutality of the actions of the crown?
 
weepiper said:
the obvious answer to this one is that it's still 'ok to do it' now. But they'd rather be quiet about that.
Click to expand...

Aye, sadly that comes through loud and clear. I'm sure we wouldnt understand, fog of war and all that.............
 
Giles said:
If you have two sides fighting a "dirty war", both of whom frequently murdered their "rivals" or those who as they saw it, supported their enemies, as well as periodically blowing up anyone else who happened to be in the way, then some pretty nasty stuff is going to happen.

Why demands for endless "enquiries" on one side only?

Giles..
Click to expand...

Yes, murderers on both sides should be imprisoned.

Why are murderers on the British side never imprisoned? Because that's what you're asking for.
 
Giles said:
If you have two sides fighting a "dirty war", both of whom frequently murdered their "rivals" or those who as they saw it, supported their enemies, as well as periodically blowing up anyone else who happened to be in the way, then some pretty nasty stuff is going to happen.

Why demands for endless "enquiries" on one side only?

Giles..
Click to expand...


Because one of those sides claims to be acting in my name under my electoral mandate. Why wouldn't you want that side to be held fully to account, unless you are happy for them to carry out assassinations of troublesome lawyers, unless you are happy for them to use murderous intimidation to discipline awkward communities. If you are happy with those things than have the courage to say so, don't try to hide behind some 'six of one half and dozen of the other' blether.

Louis MacNeice
 
I love the way that Cameron and the present chief constable concerned are 'deeply, deeply sorry' for what happened - I am surmising here that they would have been briefed on what actually happened at some point before the report was published. In any event if they are so sorry so then why no public enquiry? Too big a can of worms is it?
 
teqniq said:
I love the way that Cameron and the present chief constable concerned are 'deeply, deeply sorry' for what happened - I am surmising here that they would have been briefed on what actually happened at some point before the report was published. In any event if they are so sorry so then why no public enquiry? Too big a can of worms is it?
Click to expand...

You're missing the point, the point is they are very sorry - what they are actually sorry for is hardly relevant......
 
What? They are sorry for what is essentially state-sanctioned murder and that is not relevant, how? :confused:
 
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