Outrage as Tory MP claims she felt threatened by 'thug gang' of campaigning OAPs and disabled people

[equationgirl]

Lletsa got banned for similar stuff to this. And unlike this sad wanker he was a decent poster most of the time.

Lletsa got banned for denying disability hate crime existed, despite several posters detailing various incidents that had happened to them or family members. His comments and attitudes were some of the nastiest ignorant posts I've had the misfortune to see on urban.

I don't care if he was a decent poster the rest of the time. Would you say the same if a poster was denying race or gay hate crimes existed?

 

[Pickman's model]

Lletsa got banned for denying disability hate crime existed, despite several posters detailing various incidents that had happened to them or family members. His comments and attitudes were some of the nastiest ignorant posts I've had the misfortune to see on urban.

I don't care if he was a decent poster the rest of the time. Would you say the same if a poster was denying race or gay hate crimes existed?

Lletsa got banned for similar stuff to this. And unlike this sad wanker he was a decent poster most of the time.

let's not let this become a debate about lletsa.

 

[equationgirl]

let's not let this become a debate about lletsa.

No, you're right. But as someone involved in the events leading up to his banning I just get sick of the 'he was alright really' lines.

 

[Pickman's model]

No, you're right. But as someone involved in the events leading up to his banning I just get sick of the 'he was alright really' lines.

i don't blame you. he was a right wanker, not alright.

 

[andysays]

IMO, lletsa was doing worse, because he was baiting people who were talking about their own situations, not the whole clusterfuck in general terms.

but this behavior is still really shitty

I wasn't around when lletsa was doing his thing, so I can't comment on that, but zippyRN also has a habit of effectively attacking people talking about their own situations, both on this thread and in various threads in the Benefits Forum.

I've flagged it up to the mods before, with apparently no notice being taken, so I'm glad that action has now been taken. Thanks again to mango5

 

[Pickman's model]

 

[existentialist]

Usuyal problem with the cant and 'phacts' of the whole welfare reform opposition is that they seem to be based not even in anecdotal evidence byut in man down the pub level stories ...

That looks like squirming. Posturing about stuff that isn't actually happening, and conveniently ignoring anything that doesn't fit your twisted narrative.

 

[smokedout]

Why are the DWP not willing to release the figures eh?

Because they don't have them, at least when it comes to deaths of people who have been found fit for work, they aren't on benefits anymore in a lot of cases so the DWP don't know whether they are still alive or not. They could probably get some kind of estimate, by trying to match benefit records with HMRC, or death registrations, as well as ex-ESA new JSA customers who've died, but it would be very noisy data and not the kind of thing that could be put together in an afternoon.

This whole FOI battle about this has all been a bit of a distraction, and not a very helpful one as this thread shows. Unfortunately dickhead is right, there is no evidence that tens of thousands of people have died, it's just not true, if it was it would show up in all sorts of figures, suicide rates*, cancer survival stats etc. All the figures the DWP are refusing to release are the ones which show the annual number of deaths of ESA claimants in both the Support group and the Work Related Activity Group (WRAG). The total number of annual ESA deaths has remained fairly constant, at around 50,000 a year. As some of these people had terminal conditions this isn't very suprising, but it has been reported or implied in places that all these people died because of welfare reforms.

What we do know is that in one year (2011 - the last for which we have figures) around 1000 people died who were placed in the WRAG - meaning they did not lose benefits but do face conditionality meaning the possibility of workfare or sanctions, being sent on shitty A4e training courses etc. That the death rate of people in the WRAG group is significantly higher than the general population, what this suggests is that some people are being placed in this group who are not really ready to look for, or prepare for work, and are certainly not faking it as media reports have implied.

We also know that about 30 people have died whilst in the process of appealing a fit for work decision, and there have been around 100 deaths reported in the media that were in some way linked to loss of benefits due to reforms. In some of these cases coronors have stated that benefit withdrawal was a factor in the deaths.

I find it a little depressing that people feel the need to say thousands of people have died to try and make an arguments against the reforms. One death is enough for fucks sake, and there have been plenty more than that - alongside which every measure of homelessness is rising and the use of foodbanks has soared. Hundreds of thousands of people have had their lives devastated by sanctions, Atos, the bedroom tax etc - we shouldn't need to invent ghosts, the suffering is fucking real and easily avoidable. And that suffering is built in to the now punitive nature of the benefits system, the DWP rulebook says it expects that benefit sanctions will damage the health of a normal healthy adult.

*there was a spike in male middle aged suicides in the most recent figures, this is worth keeping an eye on.

 

[toggle]

Because they don't have them, at least when it comes to deaths of people who have been found fit for work, they aren't on benefits anymore in a lot of cases so the DWP don't know whether they are still alive or not. They could probably get some kind of estimate, by trying to match benefit records with HMRC, or death registrations, as well as ex-ESA new JSA customers who've died, but it would be very noisy data and not the kind of thing that could be put together in an afternoon.

This whole FOI battle about this has all been a bit of a distraction, and not a very helpful one as this thread shows. Unfortunately dickhead is right, there is no evidence that tens of thousands of people have died, it's just not true, if it was it would show up in all sorts of figures, suicide rates*, cancer survival stats etc. All the figures the DWP are refusing to release are the ones which show the annual number of deaths of ESA claimants in both the Support group and the Work Related Activity Group (WRAG). The total number of annual ESA deaths has remained fairly constant, at around 50,000 a year. As some of these people had terminal conditions this isn't very suprising, but it has been reported or implied in places that all these people died because of welfare reforms.

What we do know is that in one year (2011 - the last for which we have figures) around 1000 people died who were placed in the WRAG - meaning they did not lose benefits but do face conditionality meaning the possibility of workfare or sanctions, being sent on shitty A4e training courses etc. That the death rate of people in the WRAG group is significantly higher than the general population, what this suggests is that some people are being placed in this group who are not really ready to look for, or prepare for work, and are certainly not faking it as media reports have implied.

We also know that about 30 people have died whilst in the process of appealing a fit for work decision, and there have been around 100 deaths reported in the media that were in some way linked to loss of benefits due to reforms. In some of these cases coronors have stated that benefit withdrawal was a factor in the deaths.

I find it a little depressing that people feel the need to say thousands of people have died to try and make an arguments against the reforms. One death is enough for fucks sake, and there have been plenty more than that - alongside which every measure of homelessness is rising and the use of foodbanks has soared. Hundreds of thousands of people have had their lives devastated by sanctions, Atos, the bedroom tax etc - we shouldn't need to invent ghosts, the suffering is fucking real and easily avoidable. And that suffering is built in to the now punitive nature of the benefits system, the DWP rulebook says it expects that benefit sanctions will damage the health of a normal healthy adult.

*there was a spike in male middle aged suicides in the most recent figures, this is worth keeping an eye on.

what we have though is the numbers of people whose families have gone to the media. i doubt i'm the only person who knows of more than one case where someone has been inappropriately sanctioned, or taken off benefits that has exacerbated medical conditions towards the end of someone's life, but the family did not go to the media. eg, they had neither the time or energy, or knew their relative was a private person who would not want their details in the paper.

I agree we should not engage in exaggeration, and should accept that there may be cases where the media has misrepresented a situation, but we can also say with certainty that there are many more cases of inappropriate DWP/assessor actions that are a contributory factor in claimant deaths.

 

[smokedout]

what we have though is the numbers of people whose families have gone to the media. i doubt i'm the only person who knows of more than one case where someone has been inappropriately sanctioned, or taken off benefits that has exacerbated medical conditions towards the end of someone's life, but the family did not go to the media. eg, they had neither the time or energy, or knew their relative was a private person who would not want their details in the paper.

for sure, there will have been deaths and lives demolished that have gone unreported, and there's no way of knowing how many. perhaps the real tragedy is in many cases they will be amongst the most marginalised in society, the people who need the social security system the most, and who have been destroyed by it.

the tens of thousands of deaths bugs me though, firstly because its not true, but also because it buys into their argument that people are only in poverty or suffering when they are dying in their thousands, and because thats not happening in the UK then that means everyones alright really and they should just get a job. the response to this from some quarters (mostly Labour people incidentally) has been to falsly claim people are dying in their thousands, when it should actually be to question why hundreds of thousands if not a fair few million are living miserable lives because they don't have enough money in one of the richest countries in the world - and why the state is seeking to increase that misery with endless petty bureacratic rules that mean many claimants are living in a state of near permanent terror.

 

[panpete]

JUST FUCK OFF YOU CUNT

Zippy sounds like a Katie Hopkins troll.
There's a lot of them about, that's how the tories got in, troll votes, but now we sadly have another five more troll years to go.

 

[panpete]

What's with the 'phacts' stuff? Anybody would think that you had some kind of axe to grind.

You know as well as I do that no death certificate is going to say "died due to benefits sanctions", and I absolutely think that if someone did come up with death certificates for all of them, you'd be leafing through them going "Nah, no proof there". So it would be pointless.

Many people who have taken their lives have done or said something to indicate that their decision to die was influenced by the problems they were having with benefits claims. That suggests that there are at least some cases where people have died thanks to benefits sanctions. And it would not be difficult for a reasonable person to deduce that, say, depriving someone of income for a month who is already in poor health would be likely to increase the risk of their health deteriorating further. Not to mention the general levels of stress that are well-reported by people in having to deal with the DWP in all its forms.

But it would have to be a reasonable person. And you're clearly not one of those.

I believe there are probably tens of thousands of people who are livng in misery, because of "All that is DWP from circa-2008, onwards", and maybe, all we can hope for, is that, some time, far into the future, all of the people who died as a result of these reforms, will be remembered and honoured post-humously, because humanity owes them, but it is just not happening now, or, I predict in the near-to near-distant future.

 

[panpete]

It seems from where I'm sitting that it's the benefits system that is getting more binary in approach - the DWP line seems to be "if you're not completely unfit to do anything, all of the time, fuck off"

At the same time as employers increasingly take the line "if you're not completely fit to do everything, or might possibly be ill at any point in the future, fuck off"

Yes, this is the 'black hole' in society, both commercial and the state, created by the welfare reforms, the 'black hole' in which many have fallen down.

 

[panpete]

and this is your tactic of choice today, to limit the acceptable evidence to a point decided by you and you alone.

I could post up the newspaper reports of someone who died after not getting medical treatment after having a heart attack during the assessment. or those with mental and physical illness who committed suicide after a refusal of benefits, or a blatantly unlawful sanction.

how about the people found unfit for work by outsourced atos ocupational health and were laid off, found fit for work by atos assessoirs working for the dwp therfore denied esa, and considered unfit to search for work by the job center and therefore denied jsa.

but you demand the evidence you've chosen as the only acceptable form.

while deriding the people left mourning.

you're a cunt

The fucked-up thing about living in the second decade of the 21st Century, is that, this shit actually does happen. You couldn't make it up. Future historians may mistake this era as a comedy era.

 

[panpete]

point missed as usual for U75

the small state right / libertarians means a 3rd world state like the US outside the metropolitan middle class bubble

What's the good of a third world state outside a metropolitan middle class bubble?, unless, humanity really does want to destroy itself as a species.

 

[panpete]

zippyRN Why have you come here to shit all over this thread?

Probably the same reasons why the right wing have come to shit all over the species, to cause disease, and eventually, total destruction.

 

[panpete]

for sure, there will have been deaths and lives demolished that have gone unreported, and there's no way of knowing how many. perhaps the real tragedy is in many cases they will be amongst the most marginalised in society, the people who need the social security system the most, and who have been destroyed by it.

the tens of thousands of deaths bugs me though, firstly because its not true, but also because it buys into their argument that people are only in poverty or suffering when they are dying in their thousands, and because thats not happening in the UK then that means everyones alright really and they should just get a job. the response to this from some quarters (mostly Labour people incidentally) has been to falsly claim people are dying in their thousands, when it should actually be to question why hundreds of thousands if not a fair few million are living miserable lives because they don't have enough money in one of the richest countries in the world - and why the state is seeking to increase that misery with endless petty bureacratic rules that mean many claimants are living in a state of near permanent terror.

Sorry, I am guilty of that in my post above.
I will delete it, and stand corrected.
I do acknowledge that thousands of lives have been made more miserable as a result of these reforms, and I daresay, but can't speak factually that a lot of nhs money has been spent on people who's illnesses have been made worse in some way, shape or form, by these grisly welfare reforms.

E2A, I now see that zippy has been banished from this thread, which is good. I guess the vulnerable are an easy target, or, maybe, as all workers are one paycheck away from homelessness, or one accident, illness away from ESA, maybe some of them are scared and project this fear as hatred onto those already affected.

 

[equationgirl]

ZippyRN now has a month ban, for trying to provoke an argument on the atos support thread despite being asked not to.

 

[isvicthere?]

The fucked-up thing about living in the second decade of the 21st Century, is that, this shit actually does happen. You couldn't make it up. Future historians may mistake this era as a comedy era.

I recently read "The ragged-trousered philanthropists" and was chilled to think that anyone reading it 30 or 40 years ago would have thought, "How terrible! Glad it's not like that now." But now, in Austerity Britain, it's looking much more familiar.

 

[treelover]

Dreadful new Ch5 series starting this week, 'Undercover Benefit Cheat', they do seem to uncover some scams though, and particularly identify sick notes, etc as a weak link, expect more moral outrage and Smith doing something about 'lax doctors'

 

[treelover]

I recently read "The ragged-trousered philanthropists" and was chilled to think that anyone reading it 30 or 40 years ago would have thought, "How terrible! Glad it's not like that now." But now, in Austerity Britain, it's looking much more familiar.

I recommend this to the (still small amount) of young people who seem to be awakening now.

 

[Bakunin]

Dreadful new Ch5 series starting this week, 'Undercover Benefit Cheat', they do seem to uncover some scams though, and particularly identify sick notes, etc as a weak link, expect more moral outrage and Smith doing something about 'lax doctors'

IDS would have put Harold Shipman in as chief medical assessor and then crowed about reducing claimant numbers.

 

[panpete]

I recently read "The ragged-trousered philanthropists" and was chilled to think that anyone reading it 30 or 40 years ago would have thought, "How terrible! Glad it's not like that now." But now, in Austerity Britain, it's looking much more familiar.

Hi

Scuse my ignorance, but I have never read the ragged trousered philantrhopist.
I don't suppose you could give me a very brief overview of it please?
thanks in advance

 

[panpete]

Not, yet another program on so called benefit cheats.

 

[nino_savatte]

Hi

Scuse my ignorance, but I have never read the ragged trousered philantrhopist.
I don't suppose you could give me a very brief overview of it please?
thanks in advance

You can always read it online.
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3608/3608-h/3608-h.htm

 

[isvicthere?]

Hi

Scuse my ignorance, but I have never read the ragged trousered philantrhopist.
I don't suppose you could give me a very brief overview of it please?
thanks in advance

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragged_Trousered_Philanthropists

 

[tufty79]

Hi

Scuse my ignorance, but I have never read the ragged trousered philantrhopist.
I don't suppose you could give me a very brief overview of it please?
thanks in advance

There's a film adaptation as well - no idea if it's any good, mind.