Opinion: "The End of Meat Is Here" - NY Times

[Shippou-Sensei]

New Scientist piece These are the UK supermarket items with the worst environmental impact

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Wow. Turns out my attempt to live on red bull was really good for the planet.

 

[JimW]

I just know lots of depressed vegetarians 🌶

Isn't the common factor here that they've interacted with you?

 

[JimW]

what would you recommend for a simple and filling wheat free breakfast?

Millet and barley gruel with added pickles.

 

[DaphneM]

Isn't the common factor here that they've interacted with you?

no, its because a poorly-planned vetetarian diet might not provide you with enough of the nutrients essential for optimal brain health, such as vitamin B-12 and long-chain omega-3 fatty acids.

 

[Poot]

no, its because a poorly-planned vetetarian diet might not provide you with enough of the nutrients essential for optimal brain health, such as vitamin B-12 and long-chain omega-3 fatty acids.

Other way round according to the article upthread. People who are prone to depression are also prone to vegetarianism. Nothing to do with nutrition. Sorry.

 

[Funky_monks]

So:
In one of the posts (perhaps the final one with links) that I am now not allowed to quote, the article talks about organic pasture being "bad" this idea is taken from George Monbiot's book "Regeneis".

Here is an example of how he uses "science" to further his cause:

He writes: "Because we eat so much meat, the UK’s diet requires nearly 24 million hectares of land", citing Henri Ruiter et al (2017) in support of this statement. He seems to have somehow neglected to discuss the results section of this study, which states:

"Our results show that UK ruminant meat (i.e. mutton and beef) supply has decreased over the study period, while the supply of other animal products has increased, particularly for pig meat and poultry meat (see Table 5). On a per-capita basis, supply for all animal products, except pig meat and poultry meat, decreased, with decreases in per-capita ruminant meat consumption of more than 20%. The share of domestic production in the total UK supply has decreased for all animal products, except for mutton where the domestic share increased slightly from 69% in 1987 to 72% in 2010"

and:

"In 1987, an average kilogram of beef supplied to the UK required 64 m2 of grassland. In 2010, this value decreased to about 52 m2."

and:

"the total land footprint of UK food supply has decreased slightly over recent decades, mainly as a result of a lower grassland footprint"

In their discussion, they state:

"many grasslands are not suitable for crop production and livestock production on grassland does not always compete with food for human consumption (Schader et al. 2015), and may be a good option, especially if grasslands are used for milk production (Wilkinson 2011). Moreover, converting grasslands to cropland, if at all possible, may have negative consequences for greenhouse gas emissions in the short term, because grasslands generally store more carbon than croplands (Smith 2014)."

The authors then go on to state:

"Strategies aimed at reducing the consumption of meat should consider social and cultural norms and may be different for different types of consumers (de Boer et al. 2014)."

and:

"Moreover, singling out individual food items, such as animal products, to reduce the environmental impact of food, is an oversimplification. Modelling individual diets to reduce greenhouse gas emissions while optimising nutritional outcomes reveals that there are multiple options to achieve this, and that in some cases, increasing meat intake can actually be the best strategy to ensure an acceptable nutritionally balanced diet (Horgan et al. 2016). Therefore, it is important to consider whole diets and to extend our current analysis using a wider range of nutrients."

This sort of thing seems to be going on all over the place.

I don't really want to turn this thread into a literature review, so this is included as an example. I can do more of this sort of thing, but I think we get the picture.

 

[editor]

Other way round according to the article upthread. People who are prone to depression are also prone to vegetarianism. Nothing to do with nutrition. Sorry.

Indeed.

 

[editor]

And here's the appallingly grim reality of where vast amounts of meat come from:

There are more than 1,000 US-style mega-farms in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, including some holding as many as a million animals, according to a new investigation.

In the US, mega-farms are defined as those that hold more than 125,000 birds reared for meat, or 82,000 egg-laying hens, 2,500 pigs, 700 dairy cows or 1,000 beef cattle. These are labelled by US officials as a concentrated animal feeding operation (CAFO).


By 2021, the number of farms in the UK that met the US definition of a CAFO, or mega-farm, was 1,099, according to research.

This figure is known to be an underestimate owing to the omission of Scottish data, which was unavailable because of a cyber-attack in 2020.

Industrial farming maximises production while keeping costs to a minimum to produce cheap meat and dairy – the UK slaughters 1 billion chickens, 10 million pigs and 2.6 million cattle a year – and the majority of UK farmed animals are kept in intensive units.

However, there are concerns that intensive farming is driving climate change, water and air pollution, biodiversity loss and negatively affecting local communities, including introducing potential health risks associated with ammonia pollution. Intensive livestock farming has also been blamed for increasing disease risk.

In Europe, the Dutch government recently introduced plans to radically reduce livestock numbers to curb excessive nitrogen from intensive farming.

UK has more than 1,000 livestock mega-farms, investigation reveals

Newly published figures show for first time how US-style factory farms have spread across British countryside

www.theguardian.com

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

And here's the appallingly grim reality of where vast amounts of meat come from:

UK has more than 1,000 livestock mega-farms, investigation reveals

Newly published figures show for first time how US-style factory farms have spread across British countryside

www.theguardian.com

Chinese agribusiness has "improved" on the model with multi-story confinement operations with operations as large as 7-13 floors:

Privately owned agricultural company Guangxi Yangxiang Co Ltd is running two seven-floor sow breeding operations, and is putting up four more, including one with as many as 13 floors that will be the world’s tallest building of its kind.

Hog farms of two or three floors have been tried in Europe. Some are still operating, others have been abandoned, but few new ones have been built in recent years, because of management difficulties and public resistance to large, intensive farms.

Now, as China pushes ahead with industrialization of the world’s largest hog herd, part of a 30-year effort to modernize its farm sector and create wealth in rural areas, companies are experimenting with high-rise housing for pigs despite the costs. The “hotels” show how far some breeders are willing to go as China overhauls its farming model.

China's multi-story hog hotels elevate industrial farms to new levels

On Yaji Mountain in southern China, they are checking in the sows a thousand head per floor in high-rise "hog hotels".

www.reuters.com

 

[Jeff Robinson]

And here's the appallingly grim reality of where vast amounts of meat come from:

UK has more than 1,000 livestock mega-farms, investigation reveals

Newly published figures show for first time how US-style factory farms have spread across British countryside

www.theguardian.com

The Swiss are gonna vote on banning factory farming at the end of September:

Swiss factory farming ban to be decided at the ballot box

On September 25, Swiss citizens will vote on a ban on intensive livestock farming.

www.swissinfo.ch

Sadly I'm pretty certain the Swiss will overwhelming reject the initiative. Most animal eaters pretend to be opposed to factory farming, but when push comes to shove, they chose cheap access to vast quantities of meat over any other consideration.

 

[editor]

However you try and spin it - and there's no shortage of ultra high speed spinning when it comes to the meat and dairy industry - people have got to start eating less meat:

A 2018 study by non-profit think-tank Grain and the Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy found that the top five meat and dairy companies combined were responsible for more greenhouse gas emissions than either ExxonMobil, Shell or BP.

The authors concluded that, without changes, the livestock sector could be responsible for 80% of the allowable greenhouse gas budget by 2050, accelerating environmental catastrophe.

A paper published in the journal Science in 2018 found that adopting a vegan diet “has transformative potential”, including reducing greenhouse gas emissions by an average of 6.6 billion metric tons (a 49% reduction).

Lead researcher Joseph Poore, of the University of Oxford, told The Guardian that a vegan diet “is probably the single biggest way to reduce your impact on planet Earth, not just greenhouse gases, but global acidification, eutrophication, land use and water use”.

How bad for the environment is eating meat?

Livestock farming produces 14.5% of global emissions but Britain’s farmers aim to be net zero by 2040

www.theweek.co.uk

 

[WouldBe]

Single biggest way an individual could cut their ghg's is by stopping using gas.

 

[editor]

Single biggest way an individual could cut their ghg's is by stopping using gas.

But it's not an either/or situation, is it? And it's not even a remotely valid comparison either, it's just meaningless whataboutery.

It's absolutely piss easy for someone to source a huge range of alternatives to meat, whereas it's not exactly easy/practical/possible for some people to simply just stop using gas.

 

[Karl Masks]

However you try and spin it - and there's no shortage of ultra high speed spinning when it comes to the meat and dairy industry - people have got to start eating less meat:

How bad for the environment is eating meat?

Livestock farming produces 14.5% of global emissions but Britain’s farmers aim to be net zero by 2040

www.theweek.co.uk

What would those farmers produce instead?

 

[Karl Masks]

The Swiss are gonna vote on banning factory farming at the end of September:

Swiss factory farming ban to be decided at the ballot box

On September 25, Swiss citizens will vote on a ban on intensive livestock farming.

www.swissinfo.ch

Sadly I'm pretty certain the Swiss will overwhelming reject the initiative. Most animal eaters pretend to be opposed to factory farming, but when push comes to shove, they chose cheap access to vast quantities of meat over any other consideration.

how would you support this claim?

 

[editor]

What would those farmers produce instead?

That's their problem, not mine, but some seem to have found a way to a less environmentally damaging business model.

Creative Programs Help Dairy Farmers Transition To Plant-Based Milks

A move away from producing exclusively animal-derived milk could help farmers and the environment. Discover how — and why — some dairy companies are adding plant milks to their portfolios.

foodrevolution.org

Dairy Farmers Switch to Oat Milk Because They Can’t Face Killing Cows

Jay and Katja Wilde partnered with Refarm'd to transform their farm

veganuary.com

 

[Karl Masks]

Is there much of a market for plant milk in the UK?

 

[editor]

Is there much of a market for plant milk in the UK?

Why are you asking such stupid questions? Just look in your local supermarket and see how many non-dairy milk products there are compared to, say 10 years ago.

Or just do some really, really basic online research:

One in three Britons drink plant-based milk, according to a report that suggests they have become a mainstream choice for consumers.

Shoppers spent £100m more in 2020 on alt-milks, made from oats, almonds or soya, turning it into a near £400m-a-year market.


The research, from Mintel, said 32% of those polled drank plant-based milk, which was up from 25% in 2020. The uptake is even higher among 25- to 44-year-olds at 44%.

Amy Price, a senior food and drink analyst at Mintel, said demand for alt-milk was being driven by environmental and health considerations.

That almost a third of adults were consuming plant-based milk was “evidence of its firmly mainstream status and appeal far beyond the vegan or vegetarian populations”, she added.

A quarter of the 2,000 people polled said the pandemic had made eating vegan or plant-based food and drink more appealing to them. For the under-35s that figure rose to 38%.

One in three Britons drink plant-based milk as demand soars

Shoppers spent £100m more in 2020 on alt-milks, with sales driven by environmental and health concerns

www.theguardian.com

Oat milk takes top spot among plant-based in UK

On the back of strong across-the board plant-based milk sales, oat milk reigns as the new king in the UK.

www.foodbeverageinsider.com

 

[editor]

And here's how popular it's become in Australia:

Plant milk booms in Aussie cafes. Should dairy farmers be worried?

New data shows plant-based milk is on track to overtake cows' milk in Australian cafes. Oat milk is rising particularly fast, rapidly overtaking almond and soy on the way to becoming the country's most popular dairy alternative.

www.abc.net.au

 

[WouldBe]

It's absolutely piss easy for someone to source a huge range of alternatives to meat, whereas it's not exactly easy/practical/possible for some people to simply just stop using gas.

Piss easy to turn the boiler off and use electric heaters if you were serious about doing your bit to stop climate change.

 

[editor]

Piss easy to turn the boiler off and use electric heaters if you were serious about doing your bit to stop climate change.

And cooking, oh font of knowledge?

 

[DaphneM]

Piss easy to turn the boiler off and use electric heaters if you were serious about doing your bit to stop climate change.

Rawism is the way forward to save the planet I reckon. Also save £££££ on energy bill.

Raw foodism - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Rawism is the way forward to save the planet I reckon. Also save £££££ on energy bill.

Raw foodism - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I’d rather starve.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

how would you support this claim?

Opinion polls show large majorities are opposed to factory farming but nearly everyone buys its products. This is my own personal experience - people I know say they’re against it but then eat animals in restaurants with no inquiry about how they were reared or killed. There is at least one study that shows people who claim to oppose factory farming buy its products.

I would absolutely love to be proved wrong on this, but I predict the Swiss referendum to ban factory farming will lose by around 75-90%. Like I said, most opposition to factory farming is just hot air.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I think “most people oppose factory farming but both social and more importantly economic factors mean choices are ultimately limited” would be a more accurate way of looking at it. Calling that “hot air” is just condescending bullshit.

 

[editor]

I think “most people oppose factory farming but both social and more importantly economic factors mean choices are ultimately limited” would be a more accurate way of looking at it. Calling that “hot air” is just condescending bullshit.

If only there were alternative options available, eh?

Oh wait....

Most people don't give a flying fuck about the immense cruelty involved in bringing about that cheap box of chicken wings.

 

[WouldBe]

And cooking, oh font of knowledge?

Not heard if electric cookers?

 

[editor]

Not heard if electric cookers?

Good luck renting a flat and informing the landlord that you insist he swap over cookers, not that your tiresome whataboutery has any relevance to the discussion. People need heat to cook. They don't need meat every meal for a balanced healthy diet.

 

[Pickman's model]

Why are you asking such stupid questions? Just look in your local supermarket and see how many non-dairy milk products there are compared to, say 10 years ago.

there are no stupid questions, but there are stupid answers. UK plant milk market Karl Masks

 

[WouldBe]

Good luck renting a flat and informing the landlord that you insist he swap over cookers, not that your tiresome whataboutery has any relevance to the discussion. People need heat to cook. They don't need meat every meal for a balanced healthy diet.

I think there's more if a chance of going all electric or using hydrogen instead of methane than there is of an "End to meat".