Opinion: "The End of Meat Is Here" - NY Times

[Funky_monks]

Almost as if it’s a massively complex problem that goes beyond meat=bad, isn’t it?

Well, quite.

 

[editor]

Ah, the Guardian again.

The Guardian. The same Guardian that has received more than £1Million from the people at the open philanthropy project (Zuckerberg and Gates foundation) to promote plant based alternatives to meat. 250 articles a year, 4 journalists receiving in excess of £100K annually.

From the Guardians own website: https://www.theguardian.com/info/2018/oct/02/philanthropic-partnerships-at-the-guardian#:~:text=America's%20Dirty%20Divide%20%2D%20supported%20in,grant%20from%20Open%20Society%20Foundations

Can we please stop sourcing the Guardian as a news outlet with any kind of credibility?

Why are people "on the left" so keen to see the massive food processors have total control over what we eat? There is no chance that synthetic, plant based or industrially fermented foods will be able to be produced by anyone not able to invest millions, of pounds in plant and industrial development, ie massive corporations.

In other news, unsurpsingly - the emissions impact of food miles has been grossly underestimated - eating local is a good way to lower the emissions of what you are eating, although I realise that with the escalating costs of food and with a food crisis looming, it may not be an option to support local alternatives to supermarket supply chains.

In Nature (a peer reviewed scientific journal): Global food-miles account for nearly 20% of total food-systems emissions - Nature Food

The cited report is from the Boston Consulting Group but if it makes you feel better to start ranting on and on about the Guardian, be my guest.

Not sure what air miles has got to do with the environmental impact of meat.

 

[editor]

Almost as if it’s a massively complex problem that goes beyond meat=bad, isn’t it?

Are you going to argue that the over consumption of meat isn't bad for the planet?

 

[editor]

And

The cited report is from the Boston Consulting Group but if it makes you feel better to start ranting on and on about the Guardian, be my guest.

Not sure what air miles has got to do with the environmental impact of meat.

But you can fill your boots with loads of non Guardian references here

Meat is considered one of the prime factors contributing to the current biodiversity loss crisis.[2][3][4][5][6] The 2019 IPBES assessment report found that industrial agriculture and overfishing are the primary drivers of the extinction, with the meat and dairy industries having a substantial impact.[7][8] The 2006 report Livestock's Long Shadow, released by the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) of the United Nations, states that "the livestock sector is a major stressor on many ecosystems and on the planet as a whole.

Globally it is one of the largest sources of greenhouse gases (GHG) and one of the leading causal factors in the loss of biodiversity, and in developed and emerging countries it is perhaps the leading source of water pollution."[9]

Meat production is a main driver of tropical deforestation

Grazing occupies 26% of the earth's ice-free terrestrial surface, and feed crop production uses about one third of all arable land[9] or about 75% of agriculturally used land.[10][11] The global food system is responsible for one third of the global anthropogenic GHG emissions,[12][13] of which meat accounts for nearly 60%.[14][15]

Cereal-use statistic showing an estimated large fraction of crops used as fodder

There can be competition for resources, such as land, between growing crops for human consumption and growing crops for animals,[16][17][18] where the "global land squeeze"[19] also has impacts on food security.[20] Meat production, especially beef production, is main driver of tropical deforestation,[14] with around 80% of all converted land being used to rear cattle[21][22] and 91% of Amazon land deforested since 1970 converted to cattle ranching.[23][24]

Environmental impacts of animal agriculture - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Funky_monks]

The cited report is from the Boston Consulting Group but if it makes you feel better to start ranting on and on about the Guardian, be my guest.

Not sure what air miles has got to do with the environmental impact of meat.

The massive American management consulting group working with some of the worlds largest investment funds? That one?

 

[Funky_monks]

And


But you can fill your boots with loads of non Guardian references here

Environmental impacts of animal agriculture - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Fuck me, Wiki - we're reached a new low.

 

[editor]

Fuck me, Wiki - we're reached a new low.

Read the fucking links. They're the bits in blue text. They link to plenty of studies.

Oh and here's a nice one Projected environmental benefits of replacing beef with microbial protein - Nature

 

[editor]

The massive American management consulting group working with some of the worlds largest investment funds? That one?

Oh have they got some evil anti-meat agenda going on? Be sure to elaborate on that one.

Oh and no need to comment on this one - it's for people who aren't interested in your bizarre Guardian anti-meat conspiracy theory

Meat, monopolies, mega farms: how the US food system fuels climate crisis

From a beef-heavy diet to growing crops that don’t feed people – the biggest challenges facing the agriculture industry

www.theguardian.com

 

[Funky_monks]

Oh have they got some evil anti-meat agenda going on? Be sure to elaborate on that one.

Its an investment opportunity for massive global corporations isn't it? That's the point - look at the investors in this tech Its not the kind of thing small businesses can do, its one for the massive processing industry, which is why Gates is so keen, why massive food processors like Cargill are big players etc etc. It places control of food supply even more than it already is into the hands of massive global corporations.

 

[Funky_monks]

Read the fucking links. They're the bits in blue text. They link to plenty of studies.

Oh and here's a nice one Projected environmental benefits of replacing beef with microbial protein - Nature

I can't read that beyond the abstract. The final sentence of which is quite telling: "However, further upscaling of MP, under the assumption of given consumer acceptance, results in a non-linear saturation effect on reduced deforestation and related CO2 emissions—an effect that cannot be captured with the method of static LCA."

ie, there are massive flaws in our projections.

This greenwashing is all very convenient, isn't it? Here we are, arguing over 5% (meat, all ag 10%) GHG, whilst not talking about; Fuel without transport (53%), Transport (25%) and Industrial processes (9%)

https://www.congreso.es/docu/docum/ddocum/dosieres/sleg/legislatura_14/spl_11/pdfs/50.pdf

Here are the transport emissions:
EU-27: CO2 emissions shares by sector 2019 | Statista

 

[DaphneM]

The massive American management consulting group working with some of the worlds largest investment funds? That one?

The New York Times also reported that Boston Consulting Group is one of the consulting firms, along with McKinsey and Booz Allen, helping Prince Mohammed bin Salmanconsolidate power in Saudi Arabia.[36]

Lovely people…

 

[editor]

I can't read that beyond the abstract. The final sentence of which is quite telling: "However, further upscaling of MP, under the assumption of given consumer acceptance, results in a non-linear saturation effect on reduced deforestation and related CO2 emissions—an effect that cannot be captured with the method of static LCA."

ie, there are massive flaws in our projections.

This greenwashing is all very convenient, isn't it? Here we are, arguing over 5% (meat, all ag 10%) GHG, whilst not talking about; Fuel without transport (53%), Transport (25%) and Industrial processes (9%)

https://www.congreso.es/docu/docum/ddocum/dosieres/sleg/legislatura_14/spl_11/pdfs/50.pdf

Here are the transport emissions:
EU-27: CO2 emissions shares by sector 2019 | Statista

The vast majority of scientists on the planet has concluded that people need to considerably reduce their intake of meat. I'm not really interested in your opinion on the matter, to be honest, because you're steeped in a weird denial about the fucking obvious because you love meat so much.

 

[editor]

The New York Times also reported that Boston Consulting Group is one of the consulting firms, along with McKinsey and Booz Allen, helping Prince Mohammed bin Salmanconsolidate power in Saudi Arabia.[36]

Lovely people…

Can you point out any inaccuracies in their findings?

 

[Funky_monks]

The vast majority of scientists on the planet has concluded that people need to considerably reduce their intake of meat. I'm not really interested in your opinion on the matter, to be honest, because you're steeped in a weird denial about the fucking obvious because you love meat so much.

They haven't though- hence my post way back showing that almost all of your guardian based posts rely on about 5 sources.

I'm quite literally one of those scientists

 

[Funky_monks]

It's a massively contentious issue, especially when you look at wildlife/habitats:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2494.2005.00489.x
Bio-cultural heritage and biodiversity: emerging paradigms in conservation and planning - Biodiversity and Conservation

 

[editor]

They haven't though- hence my post way back showing that almost all of your guardian based posts rely on about 5 sources.

I'm quite literally one of those scientists

So you're arguing that there would be zero environment benefit to reducing global meat consumption, yes?

 

[Funky_monks]

So you're arguing that there would be zero environment benefit to reducing global meat consumption, yes?

No.
Ffs.

Read the bloody thread.

Edited to add: it's almost like you read nothing that I've written and every time you see a post, you Google up any random anti meat articles from any sources and just spew them onto this thread, often without even reading them.

 

[editor]

Yuk. More freak show meat

Nitrites in bacon: MPs and scientists call for UK ban over cancer fears

Chemical used to cure bacon linked to development of bowel, breast and prostate cancers

www.theguardian.com

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

So you're arguing that there would be zero environment benefit to reducing global meat consumption, yes?

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Ah, the Guardian again.

The Guardian. The same Guardian that has received more than £1Million from the people at the open philanthropy project (Zuckerberg and Gates foundation) to promote plant based alternatives to meat. 250 articles a year, 4 journalists receiving in excess of £100K annually.

From the Guardians own website: https://www.theguardian.com/info/2018/oct/02/philanthropic-partnerships-at-the-guardian#:~:text=America's%20Dirty%20Divide%20%2D%20supported%20in,grant%20from%20Open%20Society%20Foundations

Can we please stop sourcing the Guardian as a news outlet with any kind of credibility?

Why are people "on the left" so keen to see the massive food processors have total control over what we eat? There is no chance that synthetic, plant based or industrially fermented foods will be able to be produced by anyone not able to invest millions, of pounds in plant and industrial development, ie massive corporations.

In other news, unsurpsingly - the emissions impact of food miles has been grossly underestimated - eating local is a good way to lower the emissions of what you are eating, although I realise that with the escalating costs of food and with a food crisis looming, it may not be an option to support local alternatives to supermarket supply chains.

In Nature (a peer reviewed scientific journal): Global food-miles account for nearly 20% of total food-systems emissions - Nature Food

The Open Philanthropy Project isn’t a ‘Zuckerberg and Gates foundation’ you stupid dickhead. Also, what’s your claim here? If someone is paid by an anti-meat organisation we shouldn’t trust them? But you’re paid by the meat industry so why the fuck should anyone trust you?

 

[Funky_monks]

The Open Philanthropy Project isn’t a ‘Zuckerberg and Gates foundation’ you stupid dickhead. Also, what’s your claim here? If someone is paid by an anti-meat organisation we shouldn’t trust them? But you’re paid by the meat industry so why the fuck should anyone trust you?

I'm not - I'm paid by a university, so thanks for that. Most scientists are, its the external stuff which occasionally gets paid for, and I don't, I'm not one of the "celebrity" types, unlike, say Joseph Poore who gets loads of funding from Viva! God knows why seventh day adventism is so popular......

Amazing that "industry shill" gets levelled at me when there's been so much parroting of massive food processors advertisments for meat substitutes here.

Facebook billionaire pours funds into high-risk research
"Open Philanthropy Project, a grant-giving organization that is largely funded by Facebook co-founder Dustin Moskovitz and his wife Cari Tuna"

Sorry, wrong massive billionaire involved with Facebook.......

I suppose you could believe that Moskovitz and Tuna have nothing to do with Zuckerberg if you liked......

 

[Funky_monks]

Yuk. More freak show meat

Nitrites in bacon: MPs and scientists call for UK ban over cancer fears

Chemical used to cure bacon linked to development of bowel, breast and prostate cancers

www.theguardian.com

Saltpeter in "used to cure pork" shocker, I mean its only been happening since the middle ages....

How is this news?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/saltpeter

Are you now going to tell me that highly processed meat alternatives don't contain any synthetic coulorings, preservatives etc?

If not, whats your point?

Or have you just decided to spam the thread with irrelevant Guardian bollocks again?
If this was anyone else, wouldn't you have banned them from the thread by now?

 

[Jeff Robinson]

I'm not - I'm paid by a university, so thanks for that. Most scientists are, its the external stuff which occasionally gets paid for, and I don't, I'm not one of the "celebrity" types, unlike, say Joseph Poore who gets loads of funding from Viva! God knows why seventh day adventism is so popular......

Amazing that "industry shill" gets levelled at me when there's been so much parroting of massive food processors advertisments for meat substitutes here.

Facebook billionaire pours funds into high-risk research
"Open Philanthropy Project, a grant-giving organization that is largely funded by Facebook co-founder Dustin Moskovitz and his wife Cari Tuna"

Sorry, wrong massive billionaire involved with Facebook.......

I suppose you could believe that Moskovitz and Tuna have nothing to do with Zuckerberg if you liked......

Right, so your claim was bullshit, good we’ve got that established. The open philanthropy project also deals with existential risk and global poverty, do you whine every time the Guardian runs stories on those issues?

You work at an agricultural college or an agricultural department of a uni with close ties to the animal ag industries, but you think we should treat you as some neutral observer. Okay. Let us know when you ever get the calibre of publications or recognition as someone like Joseph Poore.

 

[editor]

Saltpeter in "used to cure pork" shocker, I mean its only been happening since the middle ages....

How is this news?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/saltpeter

Are you now going to tell me that highly processed meat alternatives don't contain any synthetic coulorings, preservatives etc?

If not, whats your point?

Or have you just decided to spam the thread with irrelevant Guardian bollocks again?
If this was anyone else, wouldn't you have banned them from the thread by now?

"Leading food scientists and a cross-party group of MPs and peers are urging UK ministers to ban the use of chemicals in bacon that heighten the risk of several forms of cancer."

Your response: it's "not news," plus some bizarre whataboutery about harmless synthetic colourings about meat alternatives.

The letter says that: “Studies carried out by the World Health Organization, UK, US and European universities, and even the UK government’s own agencies suggest a link between the consumption of nitrite-cured meat and bowel cancer, the cause of over 10,000 deaths in the UK every year.”

It urges ministers to pass “legislation to ban the use of nitrites in food production and remove a potential health hazard that consumers are worryingly unaware of.” Such a move, it adds, “could see an avoidable cause of cancer taken out of circulation”.

“Tasty and affordable nitrite-free meat products are now widely available on supermarket shelves across the UK, meaning that the great British public need never fear being deprived of the bacon sandwich.

And here's the Harvard paper that you're totally ignoring.

Last week the World Health Organization (WHO)’s International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) announced that consumption of processed meat is “carcinogenic to humans (Group I ),” and that consumption of red meat is “probably carcinogenic to humans (Group 2A).” The report differentiates the two meats as follows:

• Processed meat – meat that has been transformed through salting, curing, fermentation, smoking, or other processes to enhance flavor or improve preservation
• Red meat – unprocessed mammalian muscle meat such as beef, veal, pork, lamb, mutton, horse and goat meat

Consumption of processed meat was classified as carcinogenic and red meat as probably carcinogenic after the IARC Working Group – comprised of 22 scientists from ten countries – evaluated over 800 studies. Conclusions were primarily based on the evidence for colorectal cancer. Data also showed positive associations between processed meat consumption and stomach cancer, and between red meat consumption and pancreatic and prostate cancer.

WHO report says eating processed meat is carcinogenic: Understanding the findings

Last week the World Health Organization (WHO)’s International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) announced that consumption of processed meat is “carcinogenic to humans (Group I ),” and that cons…

www.hsph.harvard.edu

And once again scientists conclude that people should substantially reduce their meat intake

Studies have shown that the higher the intake of processed meat, the higher the risk of colorectal cancers and other chronic diseases (dose-response). This does not mean you have to cut out all red and processed meats from your diet. In our Healthy Eating Plate we suggest avoiding processed meat and consuming red meat occasionally at most. Ideally, we should be thinking of red meat as we do lobster, having it for a special occasion if we like it. This is how red meat is consumed in many traditional eating cultures, such as the Mediterranean diet. Other organizations have also recommended limiting consumption of red meat for better health, including the American Heart Association, the World Cancer Research Fund (WCRF) and the American Cancer Society. For example, the WCRF recommends to limit intake of red meat to 500g per week and to avoid processed meat.

 

[Funky_monks]

Right, so your claim was bullshit, good we’ve got that established. The open philanthropy project also deals with existential risk and global poverty, do you whine every time the Guardian runs stories on those issues?

You work at an agricultural college or an agricultural department of a uni with close ties to the animal ag industries, but you think we should treat you as some neutral observer. Okay. Let us know when you ever get the calibre of publications or recognition as someone like Joseph Poore.

It also has close ties with the rest of agriculture, ie cropping and Horticulture. What's your point?
All agriculture is inextricably linked
Here's a picture of a field of tenderstem broccoli (it's gone over, hence the yellow flowers) - during cultivation it took several tons of broiler muck. It would have been grazed off at some point after that.

 

[Funky_monks]

"Leading food scientists and a cross-party group of MPs and peers are urging UK ministers to ban the use of chemicals in bacon that heighten the risk of several forms of cancer."

Your response: it's "not news," plus some bizarre whataboutery about harmless synthetic colourings about meat alternatives.



And here's the Harvard paper that you're totally ignoring.

WHO report says eating processed meat is carcinogenic: Understanding the findings

Last week the World Health Organization (WHO)’s International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) announced that consumption of processed meat is “carcinogenic to humans (Group I ),” and that cons…

www.hsph.harvard.edu

And once again scientists conclude that people should substantially reduce their meat intake

It isn't news, given that its been happening for over a millennium, and has no bearing on the thread - I can't see anyone anywhere claiming potassium nitrate is a health food....

 

[editor]

It isn't news, given that its been happening for over a millennium, and has no bearing on the thread - I can't see anyone anywhere claiming potassium nitrate is a health food....

Just listen to yourself, dismissing the concerns of people far more qualified than yourself. If the WHO/Harvard say it's news, I'm listening. And so should you.

 

[Funky_monks]

Just listen to yourself, dismissing the concerns of people far more qualified than yourself. If the WHO/Harvard say it's news, I'm listening. And so should you.

No, I'm not - I'm not saying potassium nitrate is healthy. Nobody is. What relevance does it have to this thread?

Are you somehow claiming that if you consume meat, you are somehow forced to consume bacon? That people who eat ham are making health claims about it?

The actual "news" from your source is that there are alternatives to saltpeter that will make bacon less of a health risk....
Bizarre.

It's like me posting up this and claiming its "news" and fake meat is all bad for you because somehow quorn = all meat substitutes, which it clearly doesn't. Mycoprotein (Quorn)

 

[editor]

No, I'm not - I'm not saying potassium nitrate is healthy. Nobody is. What relevance does it have to this thread?

Are you somehow claiming that if you consume meat, you are somehow forced to consume bacon? That people who eat ham are making health claims about it?

The actual "news" from your source is that there are alternatives to saltpeter that will make bacon less of a health risk....
Bizarre.

I'll need a spreadsheet to keep track of all those strawmen you've just invented.

 

[Funky_monks]

I'll need a spreadsheet to keep track of all those strawmen you've just invented.

The bacon thing was your strawman, not mine. It's of no relevance to this thread - has anything up until this point been about potassium nitrate?